non-veg boyfriend

[smags]

Hi--does anyone have any suggestions about raising kids with a non-veg guy? We're not having them any time soon, and he's wicked supportive of me being a veg (agreed with vegan caterer for wedding, though he'll have some cheese), but we had a discussion about it, and I could tell he wasn't quite into having veg kids. Any ideas? He's well aware of what goes on "behind the scenes" so to speak, but does still eat meat himself. Thanks!

[ariix]

Hi again Maggie,
I don't really have advice but I wanted to say that I know how you feel, I'm in a similar situation! My bf eats animal products, and thinks it's great if i want to be veg but has said there's "no way" he'll ever go vegan... I haven't asked him his thoughts about raising any future kids veg yet... He lives in another city and we hardly ever see each other these days.
Sometimes I don't know, I'm not sure if I want to go back to having any meat in my house i.e. to move back in with him.. there are other reasons too, other things he does that I don't want to raise kids around like watching tv and playing violent computer games... and I'd like to unschool/homeschool and I have my doubts about what he'd think of that... though I haven't brought it up yet either so I can't really say for sure what his reaction will be..
I guess I'd say get Erin's book "Raising vegan children" and have him read it too... oh! and get The China Study and have him read *that*, if he thinks that raising kids vegan would be "depriving" them of good nutrition!!! I'm going to lend my copy of the China Study to my bf the next time I see him and I really hope he agrees to read it! Maybe his fondness for meat will start to wane...

[Christa]

I don't have a lot of time right now, so sorry that this will be short!

My dh is not vegetarian & his father was a butcher. I have been vegan for 16+ years. What has worked for us is for his to feel that I/we are not makign the decision for our children. He was amiable to me making the choice for them until they were old enough to decide for themselves. So, they were vegan until 2ish & I was always upfront with them about what meat was.

I believe that, if you tell any young child that "steak" is actually the body of a dead cow, etc., very few, if any of them would choose to eat it. Our kids are 6.5 & 4.5 now & neither of them has any interest in eating meat. We have compromised about dairy & eggs (they eat some foods that contain those at bd parties, etc.), but I suppose that I could have taken a tougher stand on that.

What has been important is that our girls know what meat & animal products are & why I don't eat them (without getting too graphic) & have made their choices for themselves. I think that my dh can respect that they have made their choices just like he & I have made our own choices.

[alexis]

I'll take a number and join the club. Right now, I'm working on getting my boyfriend to understand that when faced with friends and family about my veggie-ism, we need to present a united front kind of thing. But we've talked veg kids before, and he's, well, ok to the idea. I'll probably take the course of keeping them veggie until they're old enough to know where meat and all things animal come from and let them decide. I always believed that its just easier to start kids off as vegan so if they want to be vegan, they remain vegan but if they want to eat meat, they just add it to their diets. It's always easier to add rather than subtract. That's my very strange logic. I would always respect any choice anyone made as long as its a well informed choice and I think that respect should be extended to my future kids as well.

[CookingWithHeat]

Wow Christa, this is exactly the approach that my mom took!

It's been interesting to see how different siblings of mine turned out in this regard, the nutritional choices they make, phases we've gone through individually etc. There are a lot of us, and only two turned out omni ... one of them eats complete garbage, which makes me scratch my head.

[Christa]

CookingWithHeat,

I am glad to hear that many of your siblings remained vegan or vegetarian. I have to admit that I will be somewhat disappointed if my girls both grow up to reject what I have taught them. Although, my older dd is one who I think would have chosen to be veg*n on her own eventually anyway (even if not raised that way). She is a lot like I was as a kid - loves animals, very sensitive, & can't understand why anyone would choose to eat her "friends."

One of my vegetarian friends once brought up the point of why it is that it is considered to be "forcing" something on kids to raise them vegi, but not to raise them omni. Either way you are imparting your beliefs on a child. There is no reason that raising them vegan or vegetarian should be considered forcing something on them than feeding them meat would be.

[alexis]

One of my vegetarian friends once brought up the point of why it is that it is considered to be "forcing" something on kids to raise them vegi, but not to raise them omni.

When I was little, my parents and I had the grandest battles at the table when they tried to get me to eat meat. I hated anythng squishy and my mother always believed that we should be made to eat all parts of an animal and so she'd be sitting there and yelling at me to finish off the skin or fat or those squishy bits of chicken or whatever meat while I refused. I think that will be counted as 'forcing' since she'd usually end up making me eat them. Of course, then the gagging and sometimes puking would follow. So I don't see how rasiing a kid veggie is forcing while raising one as an omni is not because I think forcing can be defined as when you make someone do something they don't want to. And how many omni parents are going to listen to what their kids want?

[Christa]

I had those same battles with my parents :( . I remember spending hours at the dinner table crying b/c I didn't want to eat the meat, fried eggs, or whatever it was at the time. I don't think that it was a particularly good thing in terms of my mental health and my relationship to food. And, although I am sure that it wasn't the sole cause, it certainly may have contributed to the eating disorder that I struggled with for 10 years.

[ariix]

Originally posted by alexis
I hated anythng squishy and my mother always believed that we should be made to eat all parts of an animal and so she'd be sitting there and yelling at me to finish off the skin or fat or those squishy bits of chicken or whatever meat while I refused.
Those fatty bits of grisle and stuff would always make me gag too. I was lucky though that my parents didn't force me to eat them! The only thing I remember battling about was meatloaf... for some reason I really hated meatloaf, and I would sit at the dinner table for hours staring at it when my mom said I had to stay there till I finished it. Eventually she'd give up and let me eat something else, like a bowl of cereal or something. The funny thing is, when I reminded my parents about that, they couldn't remember it! Probably something to do with how UNfrequently my mom made it (which in turn probably had to do with my refusal to eat it!)

[mmhw1981]

I personally don't belive in "forcing" this lifestyle on to anyone. I have always thought that if I marry someone who eats meat and we had kids, I would eventually let the kids decide for themselves (one they were old enough) weather or not they would like to go vegetarian/vegen.

[feline01]

Originally posted by mmhw1981
I personally don't belive in "forcing" this lifestyle on to anyone. I have always thought that if I marry someone who eats meat and we had kids, I would eventually let the kids decide for themselves (one they were old enough) weather or not they would like to go vegetarian/vegen.
So you would "force" them to eat dead animal? Would you let your kids decide whether or not to wear a coat during winter time? Or if they wanted to eat candy for breakfast? A well-planned vegan diet is far superior nutritionally for children than a carnivorous diet, wouldn't you want what is healthiest for them?

[mmhw1981]

Originally posted by feline01
So you would "force" them to eat dead animal? Would you let your kids decide whether or not to wear a coat during winter time? Or if they wanted to eat candy for breakfast? A well-planned vegan diet is far superior nutritionally for children than a carnivorous diet, wouldn't you want what is healthiest for them?

Not sure what your point is with the coat/candy "questions". As for "So you would "force" them to eat dead animal?" question the answer is no. What I ment by my comment is this. When their baby's they eat baby food, which to my knowledge (since I don't have kids I never really looked in to it) is vegetables.

Eventually, they'd get older and naturally I would be eating vegetarian dishes while my wife would be eating meat dishes (assuming she wouldn't go vegie). So both dishes would be prepared each day and the kids would have their choice of what dish they want to eat. Then as they got even older and can compreheand the difference, I'm sure they'd make a decision on their own.

So I wouldn't be forcing them to go vegetarian/vegan or be forcing them to eat meat.

[starfairy]

i think letting your children decide for themselves is a good approach. Its what we plan to do with our son when hes a little older. my partner is not vegie and he did want our son to eat meat when i was pregnant but once Jayzien was born and he realised that i was prepared to make all of Jayziens meals if it meant they were vegan he was happy to let me do it. We dont have a really one sided relationship where one of us always cooks or cleans and now he cooks vegie meals for me and Jayzien. I think hes actually forgotten he ever opposed me on the vegan thing! Although i have a stubborn streak so he might have realised that its just easier to let me have it my way!

[thecatspajamas18]

Tell him that if he loved a vegan enough to marry one, then he can love vegan children as well.

[mum2sarah]

I guess I'm rather conservative about this issue... My dh is omni, although he eats vegan at home and any time he's around me, which is probably 90% of the time. He'll eat meat when he's out with co-workers, and occassionally he'll have a non-vegan dessert item (like cake) when we go out to eat. He believes that a vegan diet is the healthiest and most humane diet, but he lacks the follow-through to carry it out when it's not convenient or when a food has a special "comfort" value to him (ie. cheesesteaks remind him of his hometown).

Anyway, since he feels that a vegan diet is superior to his own, he has no problem with us raising our kids vegan. Of course we both feel it's important to ultimately leave the decision up to them when they're old enough, although I suppose our definition of that is different from how most who have responded similarly define "old enough." Our kids are 3 1/2 and 1 1/2 and I can't imagine leaving that decision in their hands for at least another 6 years from now for our oldest and 8 years from now for our youngest.

The reason I feel that way is that children have a really tough time understanding the concept of death. My great aunt recently died and it's clear that my 3 1/2 year old doesn't grasp the finality of it. She keeps thinking maybe we can visit her some day, even though we've explained that she is dead and can never come back again. Until my kids can fully understand that an animal suffered and died to provide a meat dish, then I don't feel they're equipped to judge for themselves. If I told my daughter that steak was a dead cow, she'd probably give me that "does not compute" look and say, "what?" She would have no idea what that really means. Many much older kids I've worked with teaching and in my family also have a hard time wrapping their brains around the concept of death, so that's why I feel an age of at least 10 is a minimum for my kids to consider leaving the path of veganism.

After all, my 11 year old cousin has twice wanted to go vegetarian (not due to my influence at all, btw) in the past 2 years and was not "allowed." :rolleyes: because it wouldn't be "healthy for a growing child." :rolleyes: Talk about "forcing things." Considering when omni's would "let" their child become vegetarian, I don't think waiting until they're 10 is unreasonable for a vegan to consider becoming omni.

Besides, I would feel terrible giving my kids food that is detrimental to their health without them being at a sophisticated enough developmental age that they could truly decide for themeselves. It's that need to protect your children from harm that's behind that feeling--a feeling that is more powerful than I ever could have imagined before I had kids.

Furthermore, even if my kids decide to go omni someday, our house rules will still apply: no non-vegan food in the house, and I would never agree to spend my money to support the meat or dairy industries by purchasing them non-vegan food. So if they want to eat non-vegan food some day, it will have to be at family gatherings, or on their own time with their own money.

Perhaps that seems controlling of me, but the way I look at it, we all "impose" our own beliefs onto our children, and when they are old enough they can decide whether or not to follow them. Some people make their kids go to church every Sunday; that could be considered to be "forcing" religion on them (I know that's how I sometimes look at my upbringing), but this is generally considered to be o.k. because everyone knows that while you can drag your kids to church, you can't "force" them to believe. Someday they'll decide for themselves. I don't know why diet is any different: raise them eating what you eat, but they'll make up their own minds in their heart, and when they're off on their own they'll have the freedom to follow their hearts either way. It all goes back to the grumpy old father starting his speech off with "As long as you're under *my* roof.... " Which has always made me laugh, but in some ways, it *is* our responsibility to pass on what we feel is important to our children and be firm with those things we consider to be bad for them. We're the adults; we have a better perspective and more life experience.

So my best advice would be to keep working on your bf and get him believe that veganism is the ideal. That way whether or not *he* ever goes veg, he'll at least understand and support raising your children that way and be respectful with his dietary habits in front of you and your children.

[ariix]

What a great post mum2Sarah, I agree with you completely :)

[mum2sarah]

Thanks, ariix. I understand what you mean about other things, too, like tv and violent video games. Dh has a similar attitude about those: that they're not good for kids, but somehow o.k. for him. Strange logic, I know, but I'm o.k. with at least him avoiding those things around the kids. Secretly, though, I wonder if such "virtual" acts of violence dessensitize him to the violence against animals, making it easier for him to stay omni, even when he knows how inhumane animal foods are.

I don't know... I love my dh and it's not that I would want to take back our loving relationship, but honestly if I had been vegan when I was single, I don't know that I would have married an omni. (I didn't go veg until after dh and I were married with a baby) It's always going to be a sore spot in our relationship, and although I hold out hope that one day he'll come around to becoming vegan, I'm not counting on it at this point. It's just such a fundamental problem, too. It breaks my heart to think of him eating a dead animal. :( And I'm not looking forward to the day that I have to explain to the girls that their daddy is not vegan. A mixed relationship is really so complicated, and there are so many uncomfortable situations, like neighbors who assume that since dh is not vegan, he must be missing meat so much that they try to have him "sneak" over to their place for some steak. (DH has told them he doesn't really miss it , that he honestly loves my vegan dishes, and that if he wanted a steak he could go and have one for lunch at work, but they think he's just being nice) And relatives that do the same at family gatherings.

So, actually the ideal situation for single vegans is: find another vegan to date, or at least a vegetarian that might be open to veganism some day. Because I really think that it's easier to wait for another veg. of the opposite sex than to try to convert an omni or deal with the complications of a mixed relationship.

[ariix]

Originally posted by mum2sarah
So, actually the ideal situation for single vegans is: find another vegan to date, or at least a vegetarian that might be open to veganism some day. Because I really think that it's easier to wait for another veg. of the opposite sex than to try to convert an omni or deal with the complications of a mixed relationship.
Well, you can also look at it like, it's better for the animals to have an omni living with a vegan and so eating vegan 90% of the time instead of how they'd be eating otherwise. But then, I can see how having kids would totally complicate that. What you say about having to explain to your girls why daddy's not vegan, I think that's one of my biggest worries about if my bf stays omni and we have kids.
Update on that front, my bf has been living with me for a couple months now (came for a visit, and never went back:p ) and he agreed to eat vegan in the apartment. The only non-vegan items he has brought in in these past 2 months have been some milk chocolate bars and some chip flavours that contained whey powder. I can live with that (for now, at least, while there are no kids;) ). My parents came to visit and we went out, my bf recommended to my dad a chicken dish, and then went and ordered falafel for himself. My dad was like, oh you're not having the chicken too, and my bf said he didn't want to eat that in front of me anymore! So he has only been eating animal foods maybe once every week or two out on his own. Also he has been reading my copy of the China Study and is convinced that a vegan diet is healthier, and has even been telling a couple of friends all about it! :D