Howdy,

[Blakeyboy]

Howdy All,
Just joined up to learn about your Vegan principles, as i am a very curious person and am quite sure i can't possibly feel they way you do about the animals that give us life but i am very open minded and would like a chance to learn what i can from the veg family, through healthy debate of course. Some background of myself then....i grew up in Canada, Calgary, Alberta to be precise and grew up living off both the land and the supermarket. I now provide high quality lean meat from the land for my own family and am extremely proud to do so. I have the utmost respect for animals and have a huge empathy and sadness for anything that suffers, therefore my interest in learning about why you as i so far i can't understand it. That should be good for starters. I did not join just to start trouble, i love to debate and its how i like to learn.....its faster that way, i do truly want to express my own opinion, ask questions and hear the same back from you. Hopefully some will start right away to give me a big picture of what the veg family stands for and or against, and why.
atb
Blake

[Erin Pavlina]

Hello Blakeyboy,

This is Erin Pavlina, Editor and Owner of VegFamily.com.

I appreciate the respectful tone with which you made your post. However, these boards are not for "debate." Many of the people who post here are tired of defending their lifestyle and don't want to debate.

However, I'll let this thread continue as long as I see a genuine interest in learning about why people are vegan. If the thread ever turns mocking or disrespectful of if I feel you are just trying to stir up trouble, I'll delete the thread immediately.

For those of you who want to educate him on why you are vegan, please do so. No personal attacks and let's not be judgmental.

[Teejay]

Hi Blake

I've been vegan since 1995, and before that vegetarian for a while -- but I was raised a meat-eater, and when I was in my teens I only met one vegetarian, and I couldn't understand her at all! I never expected my life and feelings to change so much -- I always hated cruelty, but I didn't see meat as cruel back then, I thought of it as a necessity. (That was back in the 1970s -- I wasn't very educated about nutrition!). Over the years as I began to worry both about the diminishing resources on this earth and also about the status of animals (not so "unlike" us as we often think), I questioned the values I grew up with regarding food.

I first decided to go vegetarian after surgery back in 1988, when I suddenly got a sense of my own body as being not that different from other wounded creatures, I suppose (that is, after the operation, I couldn't bear the sight of meat). I guess this was a psychological reaction more than anything else, and I hadn't developed any real ideas or principles about it.

However, some years after that, my brother went vegan and not only gave me lots of information about how animals suffer and how unnecessary meat and dairy were (he was not pushing these ideas at me, just talking occasionally) but also showed me what a fantastic cook a vegan should be. I was almost converted! I kept using cows' milk in my coffee but mostly changed my diet.

Then in 1994 I met my husband who has been a vegan for about 17 years. Now he was raised in a farming family and didn't go vegan till he was an adult -- he would be very familiar with the kind of on-the-land lifestyle you are talking about, and was completely part of that, so he is certainly not an "urban" person purely talking from ignorance. He has seen it first hand, and after many years of contributing to that suffering (as I did too, by being a consumer of it, even if I never directly killed anything) he decided he wanted to respect all life, even down to the tiniest bug or snail... I really admired this in him, and I guess it's part of not only why I married him but why I made the final step to be vegan.

It doesn't mean we don't contribute to suffering in other ways -- there isn't any perfect or pure way to live life. I guess it's just doing the maximum you can according to your conscience. I really love my diet and the fact that I don't use animal products in clothing etc -- I feel that my life is a lot more balanced since I made this choice.

However, I also recognise (as does my husband) that all human beings make moral and ethical choices, and just because they don't coincide with mine, doesn't mean they're bad or unthinking or "less" in some way. I hope nothing I have said is offensive to you -- I don't usually talk about my veganism to non-vegans, but I thought it was interesting that you asked. If, back when I was a teenager baffled by that vegetarian I knew, we had been able to talk about it intelligently, it would have greatly helped me understand her even if I had stayed a meat-eater. (But being so young I think I was too arrogant to "debate" in a gentle manner!)

Cheers, anyway, and have a good holiday season.

Teejay.

[Blakeyboy]

Thanks for the opportunity to learn,

Excellent reply Teejay, and i understand what your saying Erin, you shouldn't have to defend your lifestyle, i just wanna learn about it and that will involve some questions, hopefully it will end in a mutual understanding of what we both do. I'm sure you'll defend your way of life just like i'll defend mine, so i guess it's best to learn all you can as it will give you and me that "leg to stand on" in a fight. I'm not here to fight mind you....just learn.

The reason i'm here initially is my own local outdoor forum was just recently visited by a girl named princess peta that made some comments and remarks on a thread i was reading and she figured i should look up the word vegan........i did and found your site right away. I figured, to have better more educated chat with the likes of princess peta that i might as well know more about what she believes in, as its all new to me, i'm not learning about this to be an @ss mind you, i would like to be more educated so that arguments and such can be diffused quickly and with less ignorance.

Teejay, in your reply you mentioned suffering and before i talk on the subject i wonder if i should maybe know what your definition of suffering is? in more detail please. I can be quite venomous in defending something i believe in and like to know what i'm talking about....as you say...not out of ignorance, i could not have talked something through like this even 3 years ago and i'm only 29 now, but since settling down and having a boy, i've become quite humble, and i love to learn so thank you for the informative reply. You've about summed it up for me Teejay, i understand and its your choice.

If its mostly understood among Vegans, about what i do and how i live and yall don't have a problem with it then cool. I'd be happy to live and let live as it sounds like you are happy to do the same. The only thing i would have a problem with is if being a Vegan meant that you actually spoke out against my way of life etc. in otherwords.....not living and let living as i mentioned above as we would no sooner cram what we do down your throats than have you do the same to us. A mutual understanding and respect is cool, but like you say, talking out of ignorance is not cool.

Is it Vegan principle to teach both sides of the fence with equal respect?

Now that i have a better understanding of what your all about then i would stick up for your right to live the way you do and hope for the same back, its if i'm not getting the full picture here and you in fact speak out against the meat eaters, wildlife managers etc. that i need to know about, maybe i don't need to try and convince anything but i would at least like to know. I don't want people to give me a sugar coated view of what it is to be Vegan.....if you actually are active in trying to stop good people such as myself from living the way i do then that isn't right and we could maybe discuss it out. If yall teach fairly and respect us enough to leave us be and in fact stick up for us against those who would attack us then very cool(sounds like maybe you do with this PETA thing i obviously need to learn more about ;) ).

I have no problem sticking up for Vegan principles against even meat eater attacks, i have no problem enlightening my fellow meat eaters of your beliefs should there be any ignorant attacks from our camp to yours as its your choice and you are not trying to change us sort of thing. So if anyone can enlighten me on your policies as to whether its a life choice or your actually pro-active and trying to change the world, like i said i need to know the truth in order to understand and therefore accept and even defend your way of life should it be required. I would hate to stick up for your way of life only to find out that i was wrong by a fellow meat eater :0 . I read a couple posts about PETA and it seems they are the pro-active bunch and i will have to join one of their forums to learn about them also, from the sounds of things its maybe them i might end up having a problem with and not you guys at all. Sounds like you guys are pretty laid back and are not trying to change anything just having fun living within your choices like everyone else. Don't let me leave here with anything other than the truth about Vegans, can only help us both.

Thanks for your time and hope to hear more about your way of life, and Teejay....i'd like to know more about your definition of suffering as mentioned above, i'm sure i have a few questions. Hope i havn't been offensive to you in anyway.

atb
Blake

[Robin]

Hello,

I am a 15-year-old vegan who just wanted to respond to the posting here. I have been vegan for two years and was lacto-ovo vegetarian for two years prior to veganism. I have no other vegans in my family, and one vegan friend who went vegan several months after I did. My dad is a hunter and fisherman and my brother is a vegetarian, and my mom and other bro are just plain old omnivores (meaning they have no real interest in my way of life but don't actively catch or kill the meat they eat).

"Live and let live" is a great philosophy. However, you don't seem to see it as I do. For me, "live and let live" includes my own species as well as other animals. I feel that it is totally unnatural for humans to domesticate animals for the purpose of using and abusing them. I don't know if you are familiar with factory farms, but the way most animals are treated is unspeakably cruel. They are bred with genetic defects and given hormones- for example, meat turkeys are bred to be grossly overweight just so they provide more meat. Cows pump out gallons and gallons more milk than they would naturally, and their calves are taken from them to become veal and fed an artificial, intentionally-anemic diet so that we can drink their mother's milk. And it seems to me completely unethical and cruel to bring anyone, whether bird or fish or mammal, into the world for the sole purpose of killing them for food, especially in today's world of natural foods stores and Boca burgers. What I'm saying is, it is not a necessity to kill animals. I believe we need to respect all creatures on earth. We humans have interfered enough (and created a lot of problems). This is NOT "living and letting live." It is "interfering with others lives so that we can live comfortably without questioning tradition."

I understand that you provide meat for your family, which I see as much more humane and natural, but I still think it is unethical to bring an animal into the world just to kill and eat him/her, especially when not out of necessity. And, realistically, factory farms exist to meet the demands of a meat-eating society. Smaller and more humane farms like your own could not possibly provide for the current meat demand, so until people stop eating meat (which may never happen) there will be big cruel corporate farms.

What gives us humans the right to exploit animals for ourselves? The "might makes right" attitude is very dangerous- think of Hitler and the Nazis, and their scientific experiments on prisoners. Also think of what our society could do to infants, the elderly, disabled people, if this attitude continued... Life is valuable, and it is not up to us to determine a creature's worth, especially not by the sole criteria of what we can get from them. I am NOT comparing you to a Nazi, please don't take it that way, I am just saying that all in all it is a dangerous way for society to see things.

Regarding more humane, small farms such as your own, I will give you an example that may help you understand my point of view- how would you feel about a person who lived a happy comfortable life and then was killed instantaneously so that someone else could eat them - not out of necessity, but because they liked the way they tasted?? I don't see much difference between that and killing animals for meat under the best of circumstances. Even though in some more rare cases of meat "production," the animal doesn't suffer, I still don't feel right about cutting their life short for my own self.

A popular bumper sticker among vegetarians says this, "If you love animals called pets, why do you eat animals called dinner." I don't know if you have any "pets" (I prefer to call them companion animals) but how would you feel about serving your dog or cat up for dinner?

I do not subscribe to the "all diets and lifestyles are created equal" theory. While it is a personal choice what you will and will not eat (wear, etc.), quite frankly, I do think it is a better choice to be vegan in order to minimize animal suffering, to protect our own health, and to cause the least damage to this already damaged planet. In addition, here's a figure you may find interesting- it takes 20 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat. With all the poor people starving across the world, it seems an obvious solution to abstain from meat.

I don't think it's appropriate to compare vegans view on meat-eating to meat-eaters view on vegans. Vegans make an educated choice for the benefit of the animals, their health, other people, and the Earth. I doubt most meat-eaters could give a researched argument as to why they live the way they do and how their diet benefits themselves, others, or the environment. Most simply prefer not to question what they have always done. Take note, I realize this may not be how you are, and I am not singling you out. I think it is admirable that you ARE seeking out another viewpoint, so please don't take that offensively. I'm just saying that MOST people prefer not to bother. I think it's great that you have such an open mind.

I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from and gets you thinking about your diet and your beliefs. What we eat is a personal choice, but it also impacts many others, now and for years to come. You have every personal right to continue eating animal products, but if you want to take the animals, poor people, earth and your health into consideration then you may want to experiment with veg foods and cut back on your animal product consumption.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from and not take this offensively. I guess I think there is a difference between randomly walking up to someone eating a steak and calling them names or making rude comments (which I do not do) and explaining your viewpoint to someone with an honest inquiry. So, hopefully I have given you some of the information you had hoped to get from visiting these forums. Have a great day and hopefully we can debate some more! Sorry for the really long post!

[Robin]

Hi again Blakeyboy,

Just wanted to add that I AM trying to make a change in this world and society, but not through changing others- through changing myself. I can't make a difference through anything but my own actions and choices. Sorry if I came on a bit strong in my other post, I am just really passionate about this topic because I love animals so much (and I have no one to debate with, as people either don't want to try and defend their meat-eating and would rather stay in their "comfort zone," or avoid me because I'm known as the crazy vegan! long story, but don't take that too seriously...;)) And I guess I am used to rude meat eaters telling me "I had a great burger the other day, you're really missing out..." You know, the people who don't really have moral reasons for their diet, but who just don't care enough to look into it. If you have moral or spiritual beliefs about this issue I would be glad to hear you out. Oh, and as for PETA, I think their heart is in the right place- helping the animals- but some of their campaigns are disrespectful in nature and alienate people from both sides. That's my take on them .Plus my parents won't let me have anything to do with them! :) Happy holidays and talk with you soon!

[Erin Pavlina]

I originally went vegan for health reasons. I learned that 90% of Americans die of either heart disease or cancer, but only 4% of vegans die of heart disease or cancer. My family has a history of early heart attacks and extremely high cholesterol.

So I went vegan for health reasons initially. Then I read some interesting books and became vegan for ethical reasons as well.

There is a great book you might enjoy reading called Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman. Howard was a 3rd or 4th generation cattle rancher who eventually went vegan. He tells his story in the book and it's a page turner.

You will find that there are many vegans who are outspoken, even rude, as they try to convert, preach and proselytize their beliefs, but know that not all vegans feel the need to convert other people. Just as there are meat eaters who like to rub vegans the wrong way while others are content, even respectful, of people who live a vegan lifestyle.

I don't like to see people argue the merits of being vegan or not. I think it's a really personal choice. I think it's wrong for people to eat animals when they don't need them to survive. But I also recognize that people need to achieve this awareness on their own. I merely live as an example.

All I know is that I can sleep at night, knowing that the way I eat helps the planet, the animals, and my own health.

[Blakeyboy]

Robin,

Excellent! I can't believe your only 15. Well written. There are a couple things i'd love to talk about though.

When you said....."vegans make an educated choice for animals, their health, poor people and earth" i have some questions. Educated?....................I wonder what you might know of or think of the Food Chain? Also our place in the food chain?

It would be my opinion that we have evolved into the ultimate predator(long time ago), we are at the top of the food chain and have created a massive population because of it. Now we(mankind) will eventually over-populate this planet to a point that we will not have enough to eat just like any other animals life cycles. Or, we will learn to manage our resources because we may be smart enough to do so. There are alot of things wrong in this world, big business, governments, and people who do not appreciate what we are.....kids who are not taught anymore what we really are and where we really came from. We cannot go back to living in a log hand built house where dad hunts and momma tends the garden while they raise their children, as our society says many of us would prefer or are forced to "have a job" which allows us to buy the necessities of life instead of spending our life attaining the necessities.....pretty nice eh. So we pay people to raise animals and dispatch them humanely for consumption because we have other things to do. You will not face what you really are and if you do you will not admit it or be proud of it. You are a human being, and you do not know what that means. If you just choose not to eat meat and to tread lightly then thats cool by me. I'm truly amazed at the things i read on this forum in my short stay already, our young are so poorly educated and are trading one environmental impact for another, synthetic materials for car seats versus leather, un-renewable resource depletion instead of utilizing renewable resources, i'm not convinced yet that your lifestyle will have less impact on the environment than mine? The things you trade for may use up more unrenewable resources than if you were not making those choices? Fully synthetic wardrobe? vs cotton? which sounds worse, which has the most negative impact on the environment?

Since this is all new to me i have so many questions and i don't want to offend you either. I hope to last long enough to really learn something other than our kids are really smart these days but maybe missing some very important education to the real world and what we really are. We are animals, just really smart ones, that without a doubt will make us the most dangerous to anything on this planet, here's to hoping we can make the right choices to make sure we can always live well as a species but denying what we are and where we came from and the progresses we have made to give you a computer and a voice is very scary, its not very good team play in my opinion. I hope you understand where i am coming from also.

Our young are biting the hand that has brought them life, not understanding where they came from and that they should be thankful that we can choose to buy our meats or produce rather than have to grow it or kill it like we did 200 years ago....hand to hand, you now have the choice to eat or not eat whatever you want.....thats pretty nice huh. The evolution of mankind has brought you those choices. So it is very unfair of you to not get all the facts and understand it all before you condemn what you really are and where you really came from. Be proud to be a human, it beats the alternative. I have no problem with your eating choices, i do have a problem with the ignorance of what you really are and that goes for anyone..........admit what you are, admit you impact the environment greatly by being a human and to lesson the impact you will literally have to find a cave and get back to nature, giving up your computer, malls, schools etc. It really scares me what i've read just on this one page of this forum and i have a sick feeling in my stomach that our youth seem to have no idea. You can think you impact the environment less all you like? Maybe you do? Maybe its less but the environment is worse off? At least your trying.

Mankind is a marvel of efficiency that is why we pay for our foods and other necessities and services including entertainment, by not living directly off the land it gives us choices in life that otherwise we would not have like fighting for animal rights?.
Yes now a child can be brought up without meat? My 3 yr old son got very anemic at an early age because all he wanted to eat was carbs, your lifestyle would have my child dead if we were living directly off the land without supplements etc as it would seem the only solution to your problems. How much impact on the environment does creating labs and growing soy and being able to deliver an iron pill to your child, creating the universities to educate the kids to be able to make all this sythetic stuff.....huge, is it wiser to do those things trying to find alternatives to renewable resources such as livestock etc. or is it wiser to utilize nonrenewable resources? I think the more renewable resources we could use will have less negative impact, not more.

I grew up abit of a loner and spent most my time as a kid outdoors as a witness to nature, life and death comes and goes faster than you can blink. I think i have a pretty good handle on how it all works and you or me can be gone in a blink. Doesn't bother me at all, i know no different, i am no more important than a squirrel and i should be ashamed if i thought i was so special that i deserved to live forever......the animals don't think that. They too know it can be over just like that. That is life. Period. You cannot change that, why would you want to? I think every kid in schooling should learn at an early age that we are blood and guts just like everything else and they should see how our food gets to the table from do it yourself to feedlots, that way the youth will at least know and understand what and who we are and where we came from they can make the choice to eat veggies whenever they want, if they ever would? This is scary.

I am trying to be as honest with you as possible from someone who spent his entire youth with nature and having this type of discussion for the first time. I don't mean to offend but our kids don't know about nature, about how things really work, this is very scary.

About the cats and dogs(pets) people in the world eat them and i have 2 cats, i would not eat one but it is my choice and i wont try to stop them from eating them. They might think a deer is sacred and disagree with me.....hey thats their choice. We are very simple, to go through the process of catching, killing and processing an animal including a fish is all the same, everything has the same bits, if you can clean a fish then you can clean a deer. Hard for you to fathom that and it must disgust you. I have absolutely the most respect for anything alive and do my best to never see anything suffer, right down to the spiders in my house....i let most of them go btw. I feel a more honest relationship with our animals is the best approach, this comfortable denial will only cause trouble in the long run. Its like a drug addict finally admitting that he is a drug addict....the first step in the right direction. Our children don't like what they see when they get a mind of their own because they weren't taught well enough or sheltered from the facts as a child. Our own protectiveness is not doing our kids any favors, the more generations this goes on the worse off we will be as a whole. I would love a lifestyle of living off the land, i enjoy it more than anything else, but thats not how the world works anymore, it would be unfair to deny my child the opportunities that you have been afforded but he won't be ignorant to what he is, he will also have the utmost respect for our environment and animals just like daddy. So it takes 20 lbs of wheat to make 1 lb of meat, interesting fact, does it mean anything? I don't think so, as thats how it has always worked, thats how it always will and those who are sheltered from the truth will prolly always question what we are just like you. One documentary about lions or shark or cheetahs or any other predator really sums it up. The food chain, we are part of it, we are at the top of it. We just make it look different....thats all.

I hope you can see where i'm coming from? I hope i ask some valid questions? I hope i stimulate some valid question too. Very nice discussing this with you.

atb
Blake

[Teejay]

Hi Blake

I guess I don't have one single definition of "suffering"... but it would include things like feeling physical pain, feeling emotional pain, being deprived of freedom and the opportunity to live out one' s life peacefully and according to kind (I mean, I don't want to project onto animals some idea of what life *I* think they should be living, but I try to use my intelligence and empathy). I can't communicate with them as well as with my own species (of course) but I can take a fair guess at when they might be in physical pain (especially if they have a similar nervous system to a human's -- though many species don't) and base the rest on careful thought and observation.

It comes for me out of a kind of reverence for life. Now I try to have that kind of reverence for plant life, too -- and it may be that plant life suffers in some way that's harder for me to imagine because the structure and system of plants is so different. Nevertheless, I as a human have to eat *something*, and I can survive on only plants, so that's where I choose... And if plants do suffer, then I am reducing their overall suffering by not eating animals (if you think of how many plants each animal eats, then a meat-eater kills way more plants too... indirectly.)

Having said all that, I wouldn't want to give the impression that there is a Vegan (ie one single vegan) way of seeing things, attitude toward meat-eaters, etc. What we have in common as vegans is not eating or using animal products or by-products -- beyond that, we are as varied as people following any other way of life. Some do this for health, many for compassionate/ethical reasons (I think these are all good reasons!) but there is no one attitude or politics among us that I can see -- and that variety is a good thing -- we learn from each other.

That doesn't mean that to me all choices are the same: only that it is not my business to judge others. I do not try to convert people (some vegans do, and that's their choice) but of course it would make me very happy, for the animals' sake, and for the sake of an increase in non-violence among humans, if someone chose to go vegan. You know, I think I was converted to it by example rather than by mere talk -- the people I knew who were vegan were fair-minded, tolerant and peaceful people. (That doesn't mean my choice would be invalid if they were aggressive and loud!!! I am just musing on what influenced me.)

I would not want to give the idea that my views are typical of a vegan, as I said. But I do try to live consistently with what I see as a vegan ethic.

All best,
Teejay.

[Teejay]

PS Hey, Blake, I just saw that you and I were posting at the same time -- so what I wrote was in reply to your previous one, not this one... which I will now read.

Teejay.

[Blakeyboy]

Hi Teejay,
What a coinkydink, hope i didn't come off too strong on the last one.....these things are coming out of my head for the first time and onto print. I've always felt these things from what i learned from nature growing up, and trying to put it in print without being rude. I like your outlook and would be more than happy to stick up for your choices. Living in a world that affords a lifestyle of choice is nice. So far it appears to me we are missing some very important education early in life, and maybe it is just me needing the educating.....i only have high school so bare with me :) , i'm listening very carefully though.
cheers,
Blake

[Blakeyboy]

Hi Teejay,
I've had a chance to read your reply, I was curious about you definition of suffering because i believe we as the human predator have come up with the most humane methods of killing our prey then any other predator on the planet. I've watched documentaries where lions are already eating an animal before it is even dead! I think we strive above all other animals to be very humane and limit suffering, i also feel that we could only be so lucky to go that quick when it is our time, rather than suffering with cancer. Just another point to consider is all.
atb
Blake

[Blakeyboy]

Originally posted by Erin Pavlina
I originally went vegan for health reasons. I learned that 90% of Americans die of either heart disease or cancer, but only 4% of vegans die of heart disease or cancer. My family has a history of early heart attacks and extremely high cholesterol.

So I went vegan for health reasons initially. Then I read some interesting books and became vegan for ethical reasons as well.

There is a great book you might enjoy reading called Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman. Howard was a 3rd or 4th generation cattle rancher who eventually went vegan. He tells his story in the book and it's a page turner.

You will find that there are many vegans who are outspoken, even rude, as they try to convert, preach and proselytize their beliefs, but know that not all vegans feel the need to convert other people. Just as there are meat eaters who like to rub vegans the wrong way while others are content, even respectful, of people who live a vegan lifestyle.

I don't like to see people argue the merits of being vegan or not. I think it's a really personal choice. I think it's wrong for people to eat animals when they don't need them to survive. But I also recognize that people need to achieve this awareness on their own. I merely live as an example.

All I know is that I can sleep at night, knowing that the way I eat helps the planet, the animals, and my own health.

I agree with your right to choose and they are very valid points, i understand you don't like to see people argue the merits of being a vegan or not, but i'll try my best to keep it civil. I really do only want to learn because my heart and everything i've learned directly from nature tells me something different and would like the opportunity to share some of what i've learned, not to try to change anyone, but to maybe help those with stronger views against the likes of me to understand me and or nature a little better? I want to live in a better world too. Like you i can sleep well at night knowing i can feed some of the leanest healthiest steroid free meat on the planet to my 3 yr old son and also improves my diet from what it was before i got back into hunting and fishing, has been helpful to my girlfriend who has chrohns disease from top to bottom as well. I also feel people need to find an awareness too, just a different awareness of what i think we really are and how things really work. I enjoy this learning so much....believe me, i would defend your choices as staunchly as i do my own especially and maybe even not if you would do the same for me? Thanks for the patience.
atb
Blake

[yemenmocha]

Blakeyboy,

(Btw, Thanks to Erin for allowing this thread.)

On to the discussion.
First, I would like to respond to the initial post by giving some of my own reasons for my view. Second, I would like to comment on the development of this thread.

1. Complicity in Unethical practices. Imagine that a department store started selling cologne named "Bin-Laden for Men" in which the proceeds went to Bin Laden's terrorist organization. Even if you really liked this cologne, would you buy it? I assume no, for you do not want to support financially some organization that does such terrible things.

Likewise, in many of the cases Robin mentioned above, there are many horrific things done to animals in most of the farming practices and slaughter practices. It is my choice to refrain from supporting such practicies, espeically given that there are easy alternatives that are usually more healthy for me anyway. So, in a nutshell, I'm abstaining from supporting the factory farming industry (and others that produce leather, fur coats, etc.)

Now I'm not saying that killing animals is the same as killing humans in acts of terrorism. THe point is merely to illustrate a principle of complicity in our daily behaviors.

It is an objective fact that such things are done to animals so that they can become our food, clothing, car seats, etc. It is up to us to choose to give them the (real) support they need - our money. I do the best I can to avoid supporting them.

2. Regarding the development of the thread - Blake, there is a significant shift from your first lengthy post and the second. In responding to Robin, you raise issues about alternatives to dependency on animals - such as the production of synthetic materials, etc. (I'll leave it to her to respond in detail to anything you said).

Raising animals for food is by far more devastating to the environment than vegan alternatives, and if you want some actual data I'm sure that I or others here can provide that for you. The vegan lifestyle is more environmentally friendly by far.

But, what do you have to say in general to her points concerning the suffering and deaths of animals, given that there are alternatives? You frequently mention our ancestors and our evolutionary past of being omnivores. If everything else was equal, and you were deciding what to have for dinner what would you choose - kill that grazing cow over in the field that obviously suffers and feels pain, or eat these beans, fruits, veggies, etc.? Robin's point is a good one. Such suffering is unnecessary, and our evolutionary past is irrelevant to the moral decision we face today. Do we kill these sentient creatures or do we eat a nutritionally equal (or superior) alternative?

"Live and let live" - that seems to be a good liberal policy. But it can be dangerous. I've heard it referred to as the no harm principle, which means roughly that we allow people in society to live as long as they please so long as their behavior doesn't harm others. But who counts as 'others' ? Do you subscribe to that principle fully? Do we let people kill their unwanted 3yr old infant? This principle must have some limitations.

What if you saw some kids were kicking the hell out of a homeless dog for fun, and then trying to light it on fire? Now, it's just for fun. The kids are getting some satisfaction out of doing this. Is there anything wrong here? Would you stop the kids from doing this? Would you just go about your business and let them live their lives how they wanted, even though it had such an impact on that poor dog?

I bet that most normal people would stop this. There *is* something wrong in harming animals for no good reason. But if cases like this are wrong, and people accept this, then it's only a short step to realizing that what occurs in slaughter houses and factory farms is also wrong. A dog owner keeping his dog in a small cage for its whole life is morally repulsive. So too would be someone who paid them to do this so that they could enjoy some product derived from this dog. But then the same goes for veal, and the farmers who use such practices, and the people who pay them to do this to animals.

So, again, do you buy into the principle fully? Is there nothing wrong, morally, in such cases?

3. Back to our ancestors, I'm not sure I see why you have stressed its importance. We did not evolve to be strictly carnivores. We're *able* to eat meat, which is entirely different than saying we were meant to eat it. I find it horrific to think that my ancestors had to go kill some other sentient creature just to live at one time. I see no reason to praise the barbaric dietary lifestyle of our ancestors. It was who we "were", not who we are now. Wow, how nice it is to be able to choose a more compassionate, humane, environmentally friendly alternative! And how easy it is too! We live in great times. Let us celebrate who we are by making environmentally responsible, ethical decisions in our diets.

4. Education - on the whole, plant based diets are more healthy than animal based diets. There's a lot of research to support this. An animal based diet has been linked to the most common killer (at least in USA) known as heart disease, and creates a plethora of related health problems along the way - the effects of high cholesterol, increased risk of various cancers, etc. So, when it comes to education and diet, it is you and not Robin who needs to be informed. This is a little annoyance of mine, much like having to educate adults who are computer illiterate. You often wonder how these people reached such an advanced age in such ignorance. The same goes for diet. A meat based diet is very bad for you. You need to read the literature.

Perhaps you can explain your own position a bit further Blake. I just can't see why anyone would consciously choose a diet that will ruin their health in the long run, contributes to vast amounts of unnecessary animal suffering, and is very devastating to the environment.

Aaron

[Blakeyboy]

Hi Arron,
I will do my best,
I'm typin a reply, hang on, i'll go as fast as i can.
cheers,
B

[Blakeyboy]

Arron,
Okay i'll try to do this in order, I agree with not spending money in a store that you don't believe in. I won't spend another dime in chapters after i learned of their liberal support and therefore the pulling of all gun and knife magazines from their shelves at the same time....fortunatly they still carry the hunting and fishing mags....i doubt for long. So i will support local business because big business like that with that kind of support trying to shape this country by what it reads when there is a clear demand for other things is very scary to me. I also try not to buy any chicken, fish or beef from the supermarket as i like to provide a healthier alternative for my family which is wild game and fish, so like you i sensor the supermarkets with my wallet.

Looks like its our moral duty to manage our wildlife and it would seem we have to kill them to keep their numbers in check....afterall we arn't going to kill ourselves to make room for them. So if we are going to kill them to keep animal/man conflicts down due to an unhealthy situation then should we eat the beans while they rot? I understand things are starting to get out of hand and i hope i don't seem to decieve you all into this argument. I do have honest intentions and i am learning, i want a healthier lifestyle for my family too, so far i'm not convinced i can or want to do it without meat but you do have me thinkin about healthier choices....thats why i am hunting and fishing again.

Live and let live is more of a conservative policy to me, its the liberal policies that take away our freedoms imo, i'm definetly more conservative. We just view that different.

If i havn't made it clear above then, i'll try again, i have a giant empathy for all things alive and some of the things man does to animals i would rather see done to those responsible. So if i saw kids kickin the crap outta a dog, i might be in jail if i couldn't keep my cool. There was a kitten thrown against a wall and then tossed into a dumpster after being thown out a multi story apartment then football kicked 30 feet, was his girlfriends cat and apparently scratched his couch.....i burned his face into my memory and cut out all the newspaper clippings of that story in hopes i could run into this guy on the street. I am a cat man, but would feel the same way over a dog or any other abused animal. Luckily i have since grown up and have forgotten what he looks like but deep down inside would love to repay him the favor. I let spiders go free out of my house....most of the time, the wolf spiders get the boot cause they do pose a danger to my family, and i don't want them to come back in, okay. I just wanna be on the same page with you on how i feel about animals and how strongly i feel against the senseless cruelty of animals.

I am proud of my awareness of what i am and where i came from, and should hope my freedoms are never taken from me in ignorance, that is why i want to learn everything i can about this. I don't want to fight with you, i want to be able to make some choices of my own in life and the way this world is going with all these liberal views is very scary to me, eventually it will come full circle and things that mean alot to you will be attacked and possibly taken from you. I want to understand you and i want you to understand me, so we can both get along. Our own survival is of most importance, it will need full understanding of our environment to make the necessary decisions for our survival, i would like to do unto others as they would do unto me, i don't want to stop you from living your life how you want, and i would surely hope that you'd do the same for me.............with your views....not so, my views will have me fighting for you while you have my lifestyle banned. Thats just not very nice.......or right. Yes i want to live in a better world to with better choices but one must recognize many of mankind still have natural instincts and to deny those will only lead to those energies to be projected in another direction....could be bad for man? Could keep more people outta jail? because their energies were directed wrong, cause they didn't know how to properly direct their energies/instincts....frustrations?

Ahhh and for the last point, You can't understand why anyone would choose such a diet? So you would change it for me then? There is the problem........the whole point is it is my choice to kill myself, not yours and i should hope someone never tries to make decisions for you about your life such as that. That is exactly why i'm very frightened about what i'm reading over hear.

This is not an attack, i respect all of you and am amazed at the knowledge and ability to write that a 15 year old girl has. I hope the best for Robin already, amazing. I am scared that she may not understand who i am and what i believe. I am scared that our youth are missing very important education about our own selves. Yes we have come along way, and someday we won't eat animals? I have a hard time understanding that as you can imagine i spent my life loving animals, watching animals, whereever i could. Not in a cage though, wild animals, so i think i have a good perspective of what it means to be an animal. I think that people are starting to think that we are not animals and that we are more special now, that we are above all that? I'm trying to be as honest about what i am and where i came from as possible. It may only be possible for one to harvest their own food be it meat or vegatibles to gain a full understanding of the food chain, laws of nature etc. Can you image teaching that at school........neither can I. I fear it may be necessary though, otherwise the ignorant will thrive and run the world. This is very scary and very dishonest imo.

I hope this explains me a little better as you asked.
atb
Blake
I like this thread so i've read it a few times, Robin you said you feel it is totally un-natural for us to domesticate animals.........how natural is it for us to type out these replies on a computer? There isnt a whole lot about us that would seem natural. Our entire lives don't seem natural, i would say that domesticating animals is far more natural than the urban sprawl of my city? There are things that go on outside of cities, life goes on, its just different. If ones cause is so great then it should sell itself imo, and maybe with time it will, i already think your cause has merrit and is a good idea and may infact research some healthy foods for my family .....its a step right. Thats the whole point, we cant just start from scratch now that weve come this far and make everyone the same, it took awhile to get here and look at religion for instance.....a 2000 year old con imo and can you imagine how long it will take the world to catch on and figure it out, same with this whole animal thing......a long time, hopefully we have got enough of it. Its lights out when its lights out, gotta make it count and it can end any second. Please know that i am not trying to be hostile.

[yemenmocha]

Blake,

I just wanted to pause and take stock of our discussion. It seems as though we are understanding one another and have some agreement.

From your last post, it seems to me that you fully agree to the following:

1. We don't support practices that we don't "believe in".
2. We both believe that cruelty to animals is wrong.


I gathered 1 &2 from your last post. And I'm not trying to trap you in any way. That clearly does seem to be what you've said.

But notice what follows from this. By your very own principles you are committed to not supporting any practices that engage in animal cruelty.

Now it's just a matter of whether or not the meat on store shelves is a product of cruel practices at the farming stage and slaughtering stage. If it is, then you are committed to not buying such products. If the animals were not treated cruelly, then perhaps you aren't committed. So, it's just a matter of getting the facts here on what happens to the animals.

We're well on our way to understanding each other. Let's take a look at the facts of what happens to most animals that become dinner.

Aaron

[Blakeyboy]

Hi Arron,

I've not given livestock and farming much thought to be honest with you, so it would be acceptable to a vegan then that hunting and fishing is done honorably and with minimul suffering to the animals because we do have a massive respect for our natural world. I surely hope this is the case.

So your vegan ideologies are more centered around what we do to our domesticated animals then, such as cows, chickens, etc.? That is likely where we will have a differing opinion. I have no problem with it, it is a product of our evolution into a life of choice rather than a life of necessity imo. We work for people and help create so many things to do in life and in return we get a paycheck that allows us the choice of what we want buy, whether it food choices, clothing choices, vehicle choices, entertainment choices. We pay people to supply us with food, veggies and meat. I see you are saying their are alternatives and healthier ones at that...i can agree with that as i feel the same way. I would say that market demand should determine what we do, just because their are healthier choices and we can live meat free doesn't mean the majority wants to. I hope you can understand that people like their traditions and to force radical change is not going to work.....education is a far better tool. If we prove that religion is a hoax because we have evolved far enough to understand that for example, then do we go about tearing all the churches down........yah right. No difference....trying to take the meat away from the people will net you the same kind of response of trying to take the church away from the people....not good. Education is the only way, slow painful process i know but it is the healthiest alternative. Attacking ones way of life is wrong, to help them change through education is yer best bet imo, then it can be friendly not hostile.

I would love to know if we all stopped eating meat how we would impact this planet....including the animals, environment, un-renewable resources etc. etc. My un-scientific guess is we would be even harder on it and even more things would die because of us. Like said before, it takes 20 lbs of grain to make 1 lb of meat....how much land does it take to make 20 lbs of grain? and if we switch then how much habitat will have to be destroyed to grow enough stuff to support us? Unthinkable imo? Facing facts that we are predators helps us deal with our empathies for the animals. We would not even question why we kill things if we had not evolved to this point. No animal in nature questions why it eats and kills that grass, or why it must eat that gazel to survive. Thats really just the way it is, its how nature works. But leave it up to us to forget what we are.

I will still buy meat from a supermarket occasionally, i do support how it gets there as it has evolved that way to feed us all, its efficient and must be that way to provide the lifestyle you and I have...sorry, the lifestyle the majority of mankind has. Why i like to supply my family with as much wild game as possible is i believe its a healthier choice. I am not down with the steroids, drugs, questionable care and cleanliness of meat processing? etc. Our market obviously is. I don't see it as cruelty, i see it as a necessity. Yes i know, you have pointed out there are alternatives.......for everyone? I somehow feel that we would do our planet more harm than good with the alternatives for all of us, but thats where i'm at so far with this learning curve.

I am a firm believer in this "life is not fair", and it never will be. That truly is the definition of life. It can be over in a blink(with any luck), or it can be over after some or alot of suffering? We don't matter as much as we think we do, we are not as special as we think we are, and we will never be special enough to deserve to live forever. I'm sure you cannot fathom the amount of life and death in nature and how regular it is, otherwise you and I would not be having this discussion as we'd both understand. If we stop killing, the rest of nature wont. In fact we will always have to kill to keep wildlife managed properly for example, or do we figure out how to give them birth control? Do we give a problem bear that poses a danger to your family counselling? Do we stop eating meat or do we continue the life cycle of recycling as it is in nature or not? Yes we agree there are alternatives, how much impact do they really cause? I just really have a hard time understanding what apparently is to me the dishonesty or ignorance of the laws of nature, the facts of life, what we really are.

I'm down with making better choices, i have a family and want nothing but the best for them. Its also not right to deny our selfishness as a human to life the way we do, its why we defend the things we believe in, every animal has that selfishness to life, to look out for number one, to perpetuate the species, to bring your young up the best way possible and if something eats you then that is life, whether it was a mistake, or cancer, or a bear, we are a top predator so we are not likely to be eaten very often but there are places in the world where we still get eaten by crocs and tigers and the odd bear gets us. Why is that different from the bear eating a deer...its not.

I do love to talk about this and i'm really fired up(excited) and believe it or not i am learning things here and am already thinking about my family and how can i improve our lives. I'm glad this thread has been allowed to go on, i am also glad that obviously educated people such as yourself have taken the time to help me learn. As you can see, its not likely i'll be converted but i do admire the ambition to make a better world. If the thread is cancelled i would like the opportunity to continue this discussion with yourself or any others by other means if possible.

I'm ready to learn more about the "cruelty" aspect of what we do to the animals we raise for food?

Some info about me first may be helpful here? I grew up the son of a cowboy who owned a waterwell service business. I grew up in the city on the edge of a provincial park(my youth spent there) and we fished and hunted when we could. The business that i still work for btw, supplies water to everyone outside the city not on a municiple supply, they have waterwells. We work for ranchers, farmers and acreage owners and we have a 24 hour emergency service specifically for livestock out of water, we treat that with more urgency than if a millionaire and his family are out of water on christmas day, we will actually stop fixing his system to get livestock back into water then come back to fix his problem later. It is very important that the animals have access to healthy food and water at all times and there is respect even from the ranchers and farmers who raise them for us to eat. Obviously a person can find other means to water where the livestock can't, therefore our priorities are to the animals. I have not personally witnessed anything i thought cruel, i'm sure it happens from mean people but as a whole industry? No complaints about how it works.....therefore i'll need to learn more on "cruelty"...the definitions etc. as they could be very different from you and I. I've left the table open for enlightenment on the livestock thing, ears are wide open, if thats possible ;).
good chattin with ya
atb
Blake
P.s....please forgive all the silly spelling mistakes i make using the right work just wrong spelling....the older and further i get from the classrooms the fuzzier my memory gets on those details :)

[Erin Pavlina]

The cruelties that food animals suffer really surprised me. Here's what I can remember off the top of my head:

1. Male chicks are thrown into huge garbage bags at birth since they are useless to the farmers. Those that don't die of suffocation, are incinerated alive.

2. Chickens have their beaks singed off so they don't peck each other to death as they go crazy from being confined in a tiny cage with 3-4 other chickens their entire lives.

3. Often chickens toenails grow around the wire in their cages, making it impossible for them to move. To solve this problem, instead of putting down suitable newspaper or hay, the farmer just cuts off the chickens toes so the toenails can't grow.

4. When a male baby cow is born it is immediately taken from it's mommy before it is even allowed to stand. It is hoisted into the air by it's tummy and kept suspended for 6 weeks so it never develops the slightest bit of muscle. It is starved for iron so it's meat will not turn red. That's where we get veal. Sometimes the veal calves lick the rusty nails of their cages in an attempt to get iron.

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure everyone else has some info to share as well.

[reb_granger]

Hi Blakeyboy,

I totally respect your desire to learn more about our lifestyle. I'd advise you to post your query on one of the vegsource.com message boards - the vegan issues message board particularly.

I've never before posted here, but I've lurked about quite a lot. I'm one of those vegans who will shy away from a debate - no matter how healthy - because I am weary of explaining and defending myself time and again.

I'd advise you to post on on the vegsource.com message board immediately. Some people seem to be online now. Hope you find satisfactory answers!

[reb_granger]

Erin, thank you for this wonderful forum (I'm new, by the way). I come here often for support - and always love reading your posts.

I hope you didn't mind my recommending Blakeyboy to post his question on vegsource.com also. Many of the questions he asked have already been addressed on the message boards there, so that sort of makes the job of the vegans on this forum easier :-D

[Blakeyboy]

Originally posted by Erin Pavlina
The cruelties that food animals suffer really surprised me. Here's what I can remember off the top of my head:

1. Male chicks are thrown into huge garbage bags at birth since they are useless to the farmers. Those that don't die of suffocation, are incinerated alive.

2. Chickens have their beaks singed off so they don't peck each other to death as they go crazy from being confined in a tiny cage with 3-4 other chickens their entire lives.

3. Often chickens toenails grow around the wire in their cages, making it impossible for them to move. To solve this problem, instead of putting down suitable newspaper or hay, the farmer just cuts off the chickens toes so the toenails can't grow.

4. When a male baby cow is born it is immediately taken from it's mommy before it is even allowed to stand. It is hoisted into the air by it's tummy and kept suspended for 6 weeks so it never develops the slightest bit of muscle. It is starved for iron so it's meat will not turn red. That's where we get veal. Sometimes the veal calves lick the rusty nails of their cages in an attempt to get iron.

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure everyone else has some info to share as well.

Thats great, i knew nothing of veal, if thats how things are done then i would censor veal and chicken for sure at least until they could do things without the suffering. Not all baby cows(calves) or even a considerable number are hung upside down....i've never even heard of that until now, definetly not big where i come from. Calving season around here is in the middle of winter, where more staff are hired to ensure the highest survival rate....it goes 24 hours too with rotating staff including vets and vet trainee's who make sure these calves are healthy and will survive. I've seen this with my own two eyes as i have been out there thawing stock waterers and fixing pumps during this operation to also make sure they have water to drink, common practice around here. I've been to hog farms, where they are raised and shipped to slaughter with no unnecessary cruelty that i've seen, mind you i havn't been to a slaughter house but i can only imagine that death is swift as they don't have time for anything else on top of the moral responsibility anyhow? I know nothing of what happens to chickens, we have hutterites as customers and i can ask them about their practices for you on what generally happens with the chickens. I'm sure we are always striving to do it better and thinking of better solutions....if not then censor them with your wallet, your choice and a good one at that. I also doubt that everyone practices the same way, they have families too and i'm sure their are many practices out there that are not mentioned for their humane and improved practices....good news travels slow, bad news travels fast sort of thing. I would like to know if it is being checked upon that these practices still happen the way you say or if there have been advances? I've not seen or heard of this sort of cruelty here in my part of Canada. At any rate, if thats what it takes to meet demand then laws will have to be put in place to make changes necessary.

Who are we?, sheltered and provided a life of choice rather than necessity, to judge those who provide their service like you and I provide our services to the community? You may as well be fighting against the electricity and water in your home too and maybe the roof over your head to be honest and fair about our impacts and cruelty? Its healthy to look at ourselves and make changes and choices that make sense and are beneficial, i agree. One should be experiencing these things first hand and understand there are reasons we do these things to our animals. Its your choice to sensor it with your wallet....as thats all you can do without becoming too liberal and having freedom robbing views, you do not lesson your impact at all imo, you just change it. We will get better at what we do....we always have, even with what we do to animals will also get better. I think i've bout got things sorted now. I thank you all for your time, reb_granger....i'd love to post where you say but i'm only going to get so involved i too get weary from defending what i believe. My next stop will be with peta as the issues i'm more concerned with are not your choices....i like them and its a free world, so go for it. Just recognize the same for me and we will all always get along, those are the issues i am concerned with and i believe it is all just a lack of education and understanding. We can't afford to be ignorant of the truth, about what we really are and what it means to be a human and what our impacts truly are, tis the only way to solve problems if its agreed that thats what they are and that they need to be solved....at whatever level?. Vegetarians and Vegans are cool by me, you make logical decisions to try to change some cruel practices in one aspect of our life....commendable, i'm no different. For those who would choose to stop certain things without fully understanding these definitions of what it means to be a human and wish to have my freedoms stripped from me then we all have a very large problem that needs to be sorted before it gets outta hand cause it will be you next to be stripped of something dear to you, just because you don't do it doesn't mean that i can't do it either, period. We all have things that are acceptable to us and not. I don't like my freedom messed with, you don't like animals freedoms messed with, censorship of me might be cruel too? I really feel there has been a serious lack of education of the natural world and what we really are. Thankyou all for this discussion so far. I'm sure there will be more to come, if there are no more questions then i think i've bout got it sorted. We'll let this thread peter out then. I just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing an opportunity to better myself and learn more. Still looking forward to any further replies but i'm almost outta here and on to the peta thing....good luck to ya and hope you can make a difference, i'll be more aware and conscious too and censor the things i believe against with my wallet, thanks for this, i hope in someway i may have helped too.?
All the best,
Blake

[yemenmocha]

Blake,

I'd like to respond to many items in your last reply but I'm pressed for time so for now at least, I'll have to be short. Also I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the number of points you've made so I have to limit myself some.

1. Environment and grain - you mentioned a statistic about 20 pounds of grain for 1 pound of meat. That sounds about right. You expressed a worry that there wouldn't be enough grain to go around. But wait, let's rethink that. The average person who would normall eat one pound of meat cannot possibly sit down and eat 20 pounds of grain. Oh my, that's a lot of grain! In fact, using 20 lbs. of grain to get 1 pound of meat (and its protein, etc.) is a prime example of inefficiency. It's backwards. There will be a surplus of grain if larger numbers of people started eating less meat. Any alternative to meat is more efficient, so there's no loss here.

2. Evolution and who we are - I don't deny that we evolved with the digestive ability to consume meat. I'm not denying who we are. In our past we were just as "savage" as many vicious predators are out there in the wild.

But we also evolved with the capacity to choose freely. And now, because of contemporary nutritional science, we know for a fact that a vegetarian or vegan diet is very healthy. We also know that most meat on the shelves in our grocery stores is the product of factory farming practices. You can safely bet that the animal was treated "inhumanely" before it reached the cellophane in the grocery store. Given this, why not reflect on our evolutionary past and acknowledge to ourselves and others that we can eat animals, but realize that we don't have to - and use our free will to make the decision not to eat meat?

In our past, it may not have been a choice. We may have needed to do it to survive. But remember our previous points. We don't support things we don't believe in, and we agreed that animal cruelty is wrong. So if indeed such things are done to animals that become the meat in our grocery stores, perhaps we should exercise our free will and choose to eat a healthy alternative. That's what I recommend. And it's perfectly consistent with embracing our evolutionary past.

3. The rest of nature - there are times when humans resort to killing animals. Bears, wolves, etc. can kill humans and perhaps it is necessary to defend ourselves. But in terms of deer populations and other similar cases, resorting to killing them is not the best option. There are many initiatives that seek to curb overpopulation problems with sterilization and it is working. So, we're not left with the painful of dilemma of "do we let them starve or should will shoot them?"

I'd like to point out, though, that if you really are concerned with deer and other animals in nature (and their suffering), then you have even more reason to not support factory farming. Wildlife policies require more effort and caution to figure out what to do. But the veal crate, slaughter house, etc. conditions are obviously avoidable - humans have created the very thing that has caused the most pain and suffering for animals ever witnessed on earth - factory farming! Humans are actively making things worse, and I desire to have no part of it.

4. Freedom/Force - I'm not recommending that we force a vegetarian or vegan diet on anyone. By making the issue a public one, all I that I ask is that people make an *educated* decision when they choose to eat an animal or wear an animal. By that I mean they become aware of what had to happen for that animal to become their dinner, or wallet, etc. I would sure like to know if my clothing came from a sweatshop where humans were being abused (and in fact I avoid shopping at The Gap and other stores because of this). So, it doesn't hurt to be informed.

And that's entirely different than forcing a change upon someone. Neither I, nor anyone else here, seems to be encouraging that.

Aaron

[Blakeyboy]

Hey Arron,

I just read from vegsource.com an article by Bruce Freidrich called "veganism in a nutshell" which was very informative btw. There was a passage in there that was very dangerous to the free world.

It said it in a nutshell that it should not be my personal choice to be able to be able to eat what i want. WHAT? It should not be my personal choice to eat meat because it means cruelty to animals????? I can't believe what i just read......scary, scary, scary. Not if i kill it myself from the free and the wild like any other predator, yes they can't fight back but thats how it works. This is very dangerous thinking to mankind. Hey it was a great educational tool and i'll be looking into better choices but to think that we should be told what we can and cant eat is just as cruel to our freedom as what we do to them. So, as long as your not falling for this seriously bad direction and your not trying to force it or change the world other than by education then cool. Telling people what they can or cant eat will never fly, we have to make the decisions for ourselves. We should always have the choice if it natural, whether we need to or not, its a right that come with life on being a human being. I should be able to provide for my family how i see fit...even if i have to do it myself. If the demand is not there for supermarket meat then you will have won and maybe we all have? But every man should still have the right to provide it himself right off the land. I should hope that is never taken away from mankind, it may in fact be a helpful thing for our wildlife unless we can introduce back all the predators we have decimated at the appropriate levels to keep things in balance. I would be very happy to just eat limited amounts of wildgame and fish for meat and the rest in veggies etc. that would be a healthy balance imo. There are some good things to come from this but i know i'm a predator, its a feeling deep inside, and to take that away would be wrong and i'll fight it. It is not wrong for us to take life, we are still apart of nature as much as Bruce figures we aint.......we'll see. Maybe the predator can be bred out of us? we'll see. Can't think straight anymore will be back after christmas.
cheers,
Blake
p.s. i'm glad you would rather not force it but change these horrible cruelties thru education and the censorship with the wallet to dictate market demand and they will eventually comply and or switch to farming the veggies instead if the demand goes that way, i'm all for it. As said before i need to remain free to make those choices so some just as you all were allowed to remain free to make your choices, so the sentiments i must crusade against are not the lifestyle choices, it makes sense to a certain point with me but those who would suggest that it is not my right to choose how i eat and or provide for my family.......that is bad news for the human race and no worse than what we do to some of our animals imo.

[Erin Pavlina]

Remember, BlakeyBoy, when I said that some vegans are outspoken and even put animals lives before human lives. So what you read was probably written from the standpoint of an organization that is fighting hard for animal rights. Not all vegans feel that no one should have a choice when it comes to what to eat.

Some farmers treat their animals humanely before slaughter. But the majority of meat in this country, at least, comes from the agri-businesses who house millions of cows, pigs, and chickens in over-crowded, inhumane conditions.

Cows are forced to stay pregnant year round so they can always produce milk. They are injected with hormones to boost milk production. Sometimes their uteruses fall out and the farmer just shoves it back in and sews her up.

A chicken living free lives 16-17 years. A laying hen lives just 3-4 months, and in fear, agony, and despair. Animals are NOT always knocked out before slaughter. Often there isn't time to make sure they are "out" before the guy with the saw starts sawing. Animal cruelty laws do not apply to "food animals" or so the law states.

[Blakeyboy]

Hi Erin,
Okay, there are extremists everywhere, i'm glad to see that you all don't want to take my choices away and would rather educate me instead, to some new choices. I want to learn about the foods now, whats available, what they do and or don't do etc. Purely for health reasons same as how you got started, the heart trouble runs in my family too. My Granddad passed away this year at 88 yrs old from a massive heart attack after having open heart surgery when he was 68 yrs old....he got 10 more years than they expected. My dad just got out of the hospital from a very near miss with a heart attack, and finished angioplasty getting 5 stints! I'll be paying attention as i'm pretty sure i'm next in line. I can't imagine my wild game being of much harm to me and my family in reasonable moderation but i'll be looking into that. I will be doing what i can to eat everything else as healthy as possible.

I personally won't judge the people who supply the meat and they live in the same competative world that we do and the market obviously demands what it is we get. So heres to hopin those that things get better through education and full understanding and acceptance of the situations. We have to accept what goes on there. In order to deliver that much meat to our crazy population man pays them to do what it takes and also make a buck in a competative world, might as well admit it. They are not the ones responsible for the cruelty, the hungry meat eatin humans are.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this out with you all. I'll be pokin round lookin for tips on the food issues. Some great info in this thread i need to follow up on.

[Erin Pavlina]

What we eat? Now you're speaking my language!

Here's an idea of the foods we eat:

Breakfast:
Waffles with pure maple syrup
Pancakes
Muffins
Oatmeal
Veggie Bacon
Scrambled Tofu
Hash browns
Toast
French Toast with syrup and powdered sugar

Lunch and Dinner:
Stir Fried veggies in a sweet and sour sauce
Veggie burger with grilled onions and all the fixins
Baked potatoes and sweet potatoes
Falafel sandwiches
Spaghetti with marinara and veggies
Baked beans in barbecue sauce
Salad with all kinds of dressing
Tempeh salad
Veggie salisbury steak
Mashed potatoes
Fake chicken nuggets with sauces
Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches
Bean burritos and enchiladas
Lasagna with vegan cheese

I could go on but now I'm hungry!

Oh dessert!

There are vegan versions of cakes, cookies, donuts, pies, candies, and ice cream. They are all fabulous!

Check out http://www.vegfamily.com/product-reviews/index.htm to see a list of great vegan products.

[Blinky]

Blakeyboy,
A great book that you should check out is "Diet for A New America" by John Robbins. He would have been the heir to the great icecream empire here in the U.S., but he turned down all the wealth because of his principles.

This book not only shows you what goes on in factory farms, but also discusses environmental issues and health issues. It's got it all! I think this book will answer all of your questions about veganism. It is fun to debate though anyway.

Goodluck!.