Speechless ... No idea how to respond

[MrsKey]

I was venting to a friend yesterday about living in rural Alabama. I really like living here most times but there's one thing that I can't stand. It is a pretty rural and agricultural area. I'm not really used to that. I always lived in small-ish towns but they were suburban. People kept animals but not as real live honest-to-goodness livestock.

Well here in AL a major industry is poultry. Chicken "farms" abound. And they're those nasty agri-business farms where all you see are long low-slung quonset hut style buildings where they house tens of thousands of chickens.

I can pretty much ignore those 'cause you can't see inside them. But our small town lies between some chicken farms and the slaughterhouse. Every time I'm out on the road I see at least one semi-truck loaded to with cages. In those cages are these sad, scared, dirty, sickly looking chickens packed in by the hundreds ...and I know that they're on their way to be killed. It just rips my heart out every time I see it. It is the one down side to living here. These trucks drive through town on the main road several times a day. Rarely does a day go by that I'm out and about that I'm not confronted with this sad sight.

So my friend's response to this was:

Well...there's 2 sides to this: yes, very sad these animals are on their way to be slaughtered...but...at least people 'in the sticks' realise that the meat on their table was once a cute bouncy cow or a fluffy lamb. Our 4 years in a village have the effect that when Maria sees a live chicken she says 'Oh yummy, can I have chips with that?' And when we drove up to Carlisle we passed a lorry full of lambs on their way to be slaughtered and she said 'We eat those, don't we, they taste good.' So...personally, I don't mind seeing it. I think if, like we do, you eat meat it's good to know the reality of it. On the other hand, you being a vegetarian...I can see your point, it's probably a bit sad to think other people will eat those animals.

I mean in theory I agree that it is good for people to realize that their meat was once a living, breathing, thinking and feeling being. But I always thought that making that connection would lead people away from eating meat. Especially children, who are usually naturally empathetic. How can we raise kids who look at fluffy lambs and say, "They taste good." ???

This is a friend of mine and I wouldn't ever want to hurt her feelings. But her reply made me unspeakably sad.

Not to mention frustrated. I mean if even kids can't/don't/won't make the connection ... how can we ever expect to make any kind of difference?

[vegma]

Along this same line, I was surprised the other day. I took my 7yo to get some new gardening gloves (for him). He selected a pair of soft green leather gloves. I pointed out that they were made from a cow and he wanted them anyway. This child has never eaten meat in his life. Admittedly we fall more into the "strict vegetarian" camp than vegan since we eat honey occasionally, and my husband has no qualms about buying leather gloves, belts, shoes, but I have tried to raise my child "with compassion". His (7yo) rationalization is that the animal is already dead, so he might as well have the item he wants...Is this a phase he's going through? Or have I flunked the compassionate parenting course?:o

[MrsKey]

We're not strict vegans and we will buy leather goods if there is not a non-leather alternative or a non-leather alternative that is available so I may not be the best person to ask about this ...

But I don't think you've failed. I think that he is, like most kids, trying to find his limits and where he draws the line on certain things. At some point we have to let our kids start thinking through these things on their own.

There are time when we eat out that my daughter orders meat. She's 11 and while I don't like it I realize that this is a moral/ethical issue and I have to let her work through this on her own. The decision has to, at some point, become her own decision or it won't be a life long change only a "it's what I have to do while I'm living at home" situation.

[PikkuMyy]

Vegma - at his age, he's not yet gotten then whole supply=demand thing. To him, he isn't asking for the cow to be killed to make the glove, so it isn't bad. I would explain very simply that if you buy the glove, then the company will keep buying cow skins on purpose to make more gloves, like another pair for the next person to buy. So if he buys the gloves, it tells the company that more people want them and then more cows will suffer.

Mrs. Key - I'd say that while you understand what she is saying, it's not really logical because her kids don't know anything about the process that occurs before and after the truck ride. In the truck, the lambs are still cute, and they aren't able to see what happens to them.

[vegma]

Hey, PikkuMyy (you'd think I'd remember how to spell your name after all these years on this forum!), congratulations on your Moderator status! I just noticed it. ;) Thanks for the tip about supply and demand - I'll try that next time!

[Mishkin]

There's something to be said for 'familiarity breeds contempt'.

[veganloraine]

i would perhaps tell your friend that her daughter is providing her with excellent opportunities to begin to develop a sense of compassion for all living beings. the next time the daughter passes a field of grazing cattle and asks if she can have fries with that, the mother could start asking her questions about what she may think the cows are feeling at that moment (in the rain, in the sun, laying down, eating grass) and if she thinks they are enjoying it or if two look like they may be friends or mother and daughter, and so on.

[Astrophe]

I don't really have an answer for you. I just wanted to offer my sympathy and support. There are people who cannot or will not connect the dots. My only hope is that they eventually will... they just aren't ready to.

However, enduring them sometimes can grow tiresome.

At a party recently another guest asked about the menu -- because the host had made an effort to label dishes as veg or non-veg. I overheard the (non-veg) host say something about trying to respect other people's choices and trying to make all welcome and make the buffet easy to navigate.

The guest replied that vegetarianism is just crazy.

I happen to know 50% of the guests there were veg. I can only wonder what they thought of this commentary.

Me? I was taken aback by the rudeness. You can think what you want in your own head. But why are you insulting host for trying to be a good host? Why are you insulting other guests whom the host has clearly tried to provide for? There you are in a room full of people -- all of whom can hear you.

Bizarre.

A.

[celtic-womble]

I'm with the friend here. Some people can eat meat and know where it comes from or even kill the animal themselves. I was always one of those; veganism is much more of a health thing for me. My son (he's 2) understands where meat comes from, to the extent that I've explained it to him in toddler terms. Right now he thinks it's yucky (he told the teriyaki chicken girl that the other day at the mall) but if he wants to eat meat when he's older I won't stop him. I hope he'll be compassionate enough to eat meat that was raised and slaughtered humanely.

I know I'm a bit of an oddity as a vegan. If people are raising their own meat in natural conditions and harvesting it humanely then I'm OK with that. I don't eat it myself but I don't judge others who do.

[veganloraine]

i've always been confused by the term "slaughtered humanely". is that really possible? every living creature struggles and fights in the face of death. only the suffering welcome death. and i really must say that it is impossible to raise meat. it's an entire living, feeling, loving, fearing being that is being given the bare necessities to grow physically large enough to be shipped or dragged to their brutal deaths.