Vegans and Pets

[duckie1978]

What does everyone have for a pet? I have read here that some have birds--were they from a pet store? I was told that most of the birds in pet stores were captured from the wild and only a tenth of them make it to the stores alive, perishing during the shipping. Do you get your birds from other people? My cousin gets her parakeets from another woman who has a pair that keep having babies. They are cute it you like birds.

I myself am a cat person. I feed them meat for a few reasons: 1) I had never heard of vegan cat food; 2) my vet (who is an animal rightist and veggie) didn't want me to because of the nutrients the cats would be missing in a vegan diet because of #1, 3) no matter what I do, they are always killing mice and trying to attack the birds outside, they love meat. I do my best to feed them the best food, like they get holistic, non-factory farmed canned food and as much fresh fruits and veggies they will eat. My cats love lettuce, peanut butter, strawberries, mangos and bread. They also love the soy meats like tofurkey.

Even my sweet little betta fish ate these freeze dried worms. I thought at least it would be flake food with a fish, but noo, I had to get the fish that likes bloodworms. It was so gross, I had to have my husband feed the fish for weeks. I was so glad when our fish passed away. I am definately not a fish girl.

Does anyone else have non-vegan pets? Or are your pets vegan? What does your vet think?

[EricP]

I have 6 reptiles and 3 dogs.

My two Iguanas are Vegan :D , but the other 4 eat insects, which I raise and feed in the most natural way possible. I use to breed crickets for them, but one of my rescued males was in such bad shape that he wasn't able to catch them on his own so I feed him canned crickets instead (the other lizards also eat the canned crickets). Apart from the Iguanas, 3 of the 4 other lizards will also eat veggies, tofu, etc.

My dogs, well thetas a different story. Two of the three belong to my father-in-law, but my wife and I watch and care for all three. He buys their food and does purchase the meat type. As much as I hate it, I can't afford vegetarian food for them. They are three BIG dogs and they go through food like mad. We tried the veggie food once about a year ago, and it costs about 3 times as much, and they go through it twice as fast :( The treats we give them are vegan.

I know I will get flamed for saying this, but here is my opinion. Owning a companion animal that isn't vegan is contributing to the suffering of the animals they are eating. Lamb, chicken, beef and the other animals found in cat and dog food go through the same torture as they would for getting human food. The only logical way to remove this suffering would be not to own a companion animal. Here is where my opinions conflict: I also believe in animal rescue, and if you have rescued a cat or dog, you should provide it with the necessities of life, which includes animal based food (for cats). So what do we do? I have no idea. The more companion animals out there, the more factory-farm animal suffering we will have. You can't remove one without removing the other. This a problem that has plagued my mind for years.

EricP

[molly]

I agree that it would be nice for no one to have non-vegan companion animals, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy area. I have 2 cats, & it does bother me a whooole lot to feed them meat. However, I know they do need it to survive & be healthy. I also know that if I didn't have them as pets, one would have remained in an abusive/neglectful home & the other would have died in a gutter/drain. There are so many dogs & cats that people abuse or just get tired of caring for that I do think rescuing these animals does more good than harm. However, it would be nice if all of us who rescue animals would try to find them other good homes, so that other people will take our rescued animal instead of ignorantly buying one from a pet store & promoting all those problems. Also, if we look at the big picture, we have to consider all the omnivorous animals in the wild. Certainly we don't want to eliminate all those species (lions & tigers & bears...) from the planet, do we? It's complicated & kind of sad, but I still don't feel too guilty about having cats. In general, I don't think people should have a companion animal unless we are making that animal's life better somehow. Otherwise, obviously they should be left in their natural environment, living their natural lives their natural ways. Unfortunately I wasn't vegan yet when my cats & I found each other. Or maybe fortunately, because I didn't have to struggle with the decisions to keep them? One sort of twisted plus to the whole thing: people seem more willing to listen to my vegan-related opinions when I admit to feeding my cats meat because it proves that I am rational about my decisions. I guess it makes me more credible when I say that humans do NOT need meat & dairy to survive & flourish. (And yes, I am concerned about the animals in the pet stores if people don't buy them because they take our rescued animals, but hopefully we can gradually just slow down the business until the businesses decide to close for lack of profit.)

[reb_granger]

Eric, I totally agree with you. I would never be able to feed my pets meat, which is why I do not have carnivorous pets. I do hate the idea of feeding cats chicken - especially as my companion animals *are* rescued chickens. Yet, I believe it's wrong to force a cat to be vegetarian, primarily because cats are natural carnivores.

My chickens are omnivorous too - they eat insects and worms and other small creatures. And they eat pretty much everything that's vegetarian, including spaghetti!

[EricP]

Rebecca,

I would love to see the rescued chickens you have... Is there any way you could email me a picture or post a link?

Regards,

EricP

[reb_granger]

I wish I could, but I can't afford a scanner! :(

Y'know, my chickens turned two children into vegetarians. The children made the connection between Kentucky Fried Chicken and my cuddly, huggable chickens, and that was the day they decided they didn't want to eat meat anymore. :)

[vegmom2]

I have 2 dogs that i had for 9 years b4 making my move to veganism and i have searched high and low for veg*n dog food but like Eric said it is very expensive if you can even find it--it also causes a stir when i have asked sales clerks for veg*n dog food!! They kind of go--what???!! But i can't stand to feed them dog food but have no choice. I could cook them food every morning and night i guess, but it is time consuming enough to make sure that my family gets their nutrients--being vegan means preparation. So this is one i am not happy with and to think of all the dog food business--well what can i say. Shelley

[EricP]

Rebecca,

:( We'll that's ok, one day I'll come to visit them ;)

I think when kids discover the connection between meat and animals they "want" to go vegetarian, but usually something interferes... like bad parents. :mad:

EricP

[duckie1978]

I have a hard time buying meat for my cats because I, too, think that it is supporting the meat industry and the cruelty caused by them. That is the hardest thing for me. Like I have always had animals around the house: dogs, cats, ferrets, fish, we even had fancy pigeons once, and I cannot imagine not having some around, especially when (if) my husband and I have children. It is one of the best ways to teach children about compassion, kindness and to show them how their actions impact others.

However, because I chose to feed my cats meat, I feel like a hypocrite. I didn't become a vegetarian because I thought killing animals is wrong, it was a byproduct of becoming aware of animal abuse in labs. But now that I have been a vegetarian for 5 years and a vegan for 5 more years [wow its been 10 years since I ate meat! :0)] I feel that it is morally wrong to eat another animal and it drives me nuts that my cats enjoy killing things. They have killed 5 mice since we moved into our apartment in August and watch the birds and squirrels continually (they are all indoor cats unless they manage to sneak out). I feel torn because I would never eat meat again or cook or serve it to anyone (yea no thanksgiving dinners at my house) but I feed it to my cats in pellets and canned food. I guess I wish that I could override their natural instincts.

[EricP]

duckie,

Your cats killing mice or birds is perfectly normal because that's what they are suppose to do... they are cats! The problem I have with companion animal foods is that they are produced in the most unnatural way... farmed.

I have no problem if my dogs want to eat meat or if a cat kills it's food... my problem is that humans are killing animals (animals that aren't "natural" food for these types of animals) for them. I can't justify the (human) killing of a cow or pig or chicken so a cat or dog can eat. It seems to me that having a truly vegan society would mean having no pets... some can live with that fact and others can't.

EricP

[reb_granger]

EXACTLY Eric! How beautifully you have phrased my thoughts! :) I've always had misgivings on this subject, too. If cats catch birds and mice to eat...well, I don't like it, but it's after all their nature. However, cats don't eat chickens in nature (my chicken Dragonfly and the neighbor's cat are the best of friends), and nor do they eat lamb, beef - you name it. For human beings to slay innocent animals in slaughterhouses, keep most of the flesh for themselves and package the rest into neat containers of cat and dog food...the very notion makes me uncomfortable.

It may be a bit of a comfort, though, to consider that those animals are not being killed specifically to be made into pet food. They're killed as a result of human demand for meat. And some people have told me that commercial cat food is safer for cats than the food they would catch in the wild.

Still, I know I will never be able to feed meat to a cat. Every time I look at meat, I start to visualize a slaughterhouse with screaming chickens hanging upside down from conveyor belts, not knowing what's going to happen to them and terrified of the unknown. And there's absolutely no difference between those chickens and my chickens, except that my chickens were born lucky.

I could never feed meat to a cat, which is why I don't have one. I really think it isn't fair to impose vegetarianism on naturally carnivorous animals. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with rescuing chickens and other needy, loving birds.

[reb_granger]

And if there's anyone on these boards who has put their cat on a vegan diet, rest assured that I'm not going to flame you or anything. I *have* heard of cats who thrive on a vegan diet, though I do have serious doubts about whether it is safe and right to 'veganize' a cat. Anyhow, please do make sure that your cat's getting enough taurine.

[andywiggum]

First, the meat used in pet foods is usually meat that is not fit for human consumption, could have diseased animals or animal parts, and could even be from like horses and animals like that....

Second, companion pets, especially dogs and cats are not "wild" at all, they are domestic. Just like we as humans can find ways to meet our dietary needs w/out meat, it is possible for dogs (more often than cats) and cats (sometimes) to be vegan and get all their dietary needs. On the topic of cats killing animals, i find it that my families cats kill birds, mice, etc...more as a "game" and do not eat whatever they kill. This is just ONE reason it is best to keep cats inside and actually play with them and entertain them as you would a dog.

I do not own a pet yet, but it looks like i will be "inheriting" a cat or two when my sister moves out, and when i do, i plan on at least trying a vegan diet for my cat. There are suppliments that exist for cats and dogs on veggie/vegan diets...if it is not good for the cat, i will switch their diet back. (wow i type a lot)

more info go to:
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/FAQ.asp?CategoryID=7&Category=Companion+Animals

[EricP]

Hello Andy,

"First, the meat used in pet foods is usually meat that is not fit for human consumption, could have diseased animals or animal parts, and could even be from like horses and animals like that...."

Yes, and in most cases that is the type of meat they (your pet) ends up eating from their food. However, the animals put into pet food is a result of farming and processing them in a torturous fashion.

"Second, companion pets, especially dogs and cats are not "wild" at all, they are domestic."

Yes, I agree that cats and dogs are not "wild" animals, but it is only because of human conditioning and breeding. If humans didn't interfere with their natural evolution, they would have done just fine in the wild.

I don't know enough about "converting" cats into vegans, but I have read many times that it is very difficult to raise a healthy cat that way... I hope in time this will change.

Regards,

EricP

[reb_granger]

Actually, I did see a cat eating a bird once. It must have been a very hungry cat.

This is what I meant by food caught "in the wild". I agree that cats are domesticated animals, which is precisely why they have to be provided for by human beings. Now, how we provide for our animals is perhaps a matter of personal preference. While I'm doubtful about the merits of a vegan diet for cats, I will naturally be happy if I'm proven wrong.

And apparently, several vegans prefer to buy for their cats something called "human-grade" cat food - meat that's fit for human consumption. It actually makes me feel all the more uncomfortable, but I don't think I'm going to go into that.

It's true, though, that dogs can thrive on a veg. diet. They're omnivorous. There was a dog that lived for 27 years, and his diet was mostly vegan! I don't know if he's still alive. Heck, I don't even know if the dog's a he or a she. :)

[EricP]

I have read studies on the benefits of a Vegan diet on dogs, which statistically proved that a vegan diet WILL improve a dogs quality of life and health... If only I could remember where I saw that study. :confused:

EricP

[duckie1978]

I think that they use like chickens, beef, lamb etc because they are by products and they do have leftovers from the animals that are not used for human consumption. But I think that society would throw a fit if pet food companies started to can sparrows and chipmunks. I mean, didn't a group of bird lovers in England (i think) throw a fit and demand that all cats be kept indoors because they were killing all of the birds that they watched, like robins and the like. I don't think you can really win in a situation like that. You can either feed them animals that were already killed as a result of human consumption or you can start harvesting the food they would eat if they were living in a feral community. An additional reason that they use meats like turkey, chicken and beef is because the protiens are easily digested by cats and dogs, rather than "wild animal" like birds and rodents which means that "owners" can just give them a can and not worry about the amount of protein their animal is actually digesting.

I can only speak from my own experiences with the cats (and other animals I have cared for) that I have and all of my cats eat what they kill. It's really gross too because sometimes they leave parts of it that they don't eat and I have to dispose of them. Even my ferret killed and tried to eat a mouse. Yes they have occasionally "left" a mouse for myself, I was actually "given" one in my bed, but that is because the cat is doing what cats do when others in their community don't hunt. I have had one of my old cats who went outdoors bring in "presents" to an indoor cat I had to teach her to hunt.

As for cats not eating chickens, I think it depends on the cat and what they are familiar with, just like whether or not a cat will get along with a dog. One of my cats grew up with a pit bull/lab mix and loves dogs, another is terrified of them. When we had pigeons, we were constantly keeping our cats away from their coop and actually gave the pigeons away because we were worried that they would kill them. (Plus I found out I really hate birds, they are so messy--please don't tell me they aren't because my cousin's house is full of them: crows, pigeons, ducks, parakeets, etc and they poop everywhere. they are constantly disinfecting things because of bird droppings-it is really gross)

As I have said before, there are companies who do not use animals that were raised in factory farmed conditions, were not diseased, leftovers. The food (Eagle Pack) I buy for two of my cats has a ton of vegetables like peas, carrots, sweet potatoes, along with meat and vitamins and minerals. They use free range poultry, no GMO ingredients, no hormones nothing on their foods because their suppliers are Amish/Menonite farmers. The third has a medical condition which requires a special food that we have to buy from our vet and only one company makes the food so I have no choice in that matter, he can't have any other food, not even treats of veggies because of the medicine in the food. I do not feel bad about buying food from responsible producers, I wish I could feed them vegan diets but I also live with a non-vegan who disagrees with animals on vegan diets because they are not given a choice in their foods. I accept the fact that my cats are carnivores and have to live with it because I would never not have cats. Do I feel like a hypocrite a lot? Yes especially when I buy the food, but I follow what my vets suggest for their diets. I also feel like a hypocrite when I ride in a vehicle that has rubber tires because they are volcanized with animal fat, when I take pictures because the film contains gelatin, car oil and antifreeze have animal byproducts along with a lot of other things that are not avoidable. But I do the best that I can. I cannot afford to mail order safe, nutrient rich, vegan cat food for my cats, until I can, I will continue to buy the most socially responsibly produced food I can for them that my vet approves. I treat my cats as my children because I chose not to have kids, I guess I see buying them meat just like any vegan mother who has to give her baby formula that is vegan except for D3, you do what you can to make sure they are healthy first, then worry about morals.

[reb_granger]

I love birds, and I don't understand how anyone can "hate" them, but I guess it's the case of 'to each his own'.

I doubt a cat would kill and eat chickens. I always thought that cats attacked only smaller animals.

While I, like many others, do not like the idea of feeding chicken/turkey/pig/cow to cats, I know that it's a better option than to create a whole new industry that would involve the slaughter of pigeons and sparrows to be made into pet food. It *is* a no-win situation.

[EricP]

Duckie,

I can understand your points, although I do not agree 100% with all of them.

You shouldn't feel like a hypocrite because of rubber tires, camera film, antifreeze and the other unavoidable products we come in contact with everyday. The best thing is to find alternatives (if possible) and urge manufacturers to make more compassionate products. To avoid driving a car is foolish, but to buy a car without a leather interior is something you CAN do. I don't know much about motor oil, but I'm sure someone makes a 100% synthetic blend. For camera film, use digital cameras. For every non-vegan product, there is (or will be) a vegan alternative, you just have to look.

As the worlds vegan population grows, products with animal ingredients will be less popular. It's a waiting game, but it will inevitably happen.

EricP

[andywiggum]

my comment about the kinds of meat in pet foods was an example of how you are not feeding your pets "healthy" food for them, since the meat is bad quality...i did read some people feed their pets higher quality food, which is better for them, but not the animal being killed.

Just as a regular (human) doctor would tell me a vegan diet isn't healthy for me, i would believe he is wrong. Just as i want to try putting my cat on a vegan diet, once it is officially my cat and i'm responsible for it. As i said before, if it's not healthy i will go back to the other foods. But i feel i'd be a hypocrite to not try the vegan alternative when the foods and vitamins are available to make a vegan diet possible for a cat.

[EricP]

Cat food manufacturers should really start to research methods to successfully implement a vegan diet in Cats. If a cats biology will accept a vegan based diet, I'm sure their health will benefit from it...

The problem is no one is willing to invest the time and money to perform these studies SAFELY.

EricP

[blas]

i believe they need somewheres to stuff all the bi products of factory farming industry so they use animals for glue and rubber and roads and pet food etc etc etc

all very sad

[vegmom2]

Ditto you Blas!!

[duckie1978]

I was going through Peta's web site and came across the stat on birds that I remembered:

Birds are smuggled into the United States more than any other animal. Before being shipped, birds are often force-fed, their wings are clipped, their beaks are taped shut, and they are crammed into everything from spare tires to luggage. It’s not unusual for 80 percent of the birds in one shipment to die.

Taking animals from their natural habitats endangers individual animals and jeopardizes entire populations and ecosystems. For example, the population of the South American hyacinth macaw has dropped 75 percent in the last 10 years as a result of smugglers’ capturing of the birds for U.S. and European collectors.

Birds bred in captivity don’t fare much better. Birds older than 8 to 10 weeks of age don’t sell well at pet shops so many are kept for breeding and condemned to small cages for the rest of their lives.

I am glad that most of the birds that my family has were eggs from other local bird lovers or wild birds that my cousin rehabs.

[reb_granger]

I'm not sure of the statistics, but bird-breeders are certainly not my favorite people. I'm opposed to the breeding of animals for sale. However, when I get the chance to rescue captive birds that have already been born into the world, and if I have access to the required resources, I will not hesitate. My two chickens would have been slaughtered if I'd left them where they were.

Thanks for the information, duckie.

[EricP]

Duckie,

Your summary of how birds are caught is very similar to how reptiles are caught for pet stores. It's very common for only 20 percent of the LIVE animals to arrive dead. Another problem with wild-caught reptiles is the fact that they contain parasites that often go untreated once they enter the country, thus contaminating healthy animals and causing their deaths.

Here in Canada the reptile trade is booming and people are using the Internet to "swap" pets with people from all over the country. Animals here are traded like baseball cards, and often treated much worse than baseball cards too.

Regards,

EricP

[VOW]

Our family is owned by four cats. Each one was rescued. And I've lived with cats most of my life.

Some cats will play for a long time with an animal or insect captured, but inevitably, unless the human is given a "present," the cat will eat the prey. And a cat will kill whatever it can. I've known of cats to hunt full grown jackrabbits, AND jump a four-foot block wall with the bounty to bring it home.

As far as feeding a cat a balanced vegan diet, well, good luck. Not only would the food have to be an extremely concentrated form of protein, the cat has to LIKE it. Cats are obstinate enough to flat out starve if the menu isn't something to their liking.

Dogs are a different story. Most dogs I've known will eat anything, including various things that are NOT good for them.

BTW, I LOVE the idea of pet chickens.



~VOW