new parenting conflict

[kkmc]

My husband has begun eating meat, eggs and dairy, after 4-1/2 years vegan, 7 years vegetarian. He believes it is healthier and more natural for him to eat antibiotic-free organic meats, eggs and dairy products than to eat processed soy, wheat and rice foods. He also thinks that our son, who has been vegan since birth, should also eat this way.

I am having a very hard time with this. He is "experimenting" right now and all that he's brought home is a quart of milk from a local dairy farm and a dozen or so eggs from our local co-op. When he eats out, he tries to go to the co-op or the Whole Foods where he knows the meat is not junk, at least that's what he says. (However, I know that when he was on a trip by himself he just ate whatever, without questioning the sources, and I have no doubt that it will happen again.)

I am very disappointed. He always claimed to be vegetarian and vegan for his own reasons and not mine. My reasons for being vegan are all about animal welfare. I believe that animal products are not necessary and therefore I do not condone the negative impact on an animal's life to provide food for me. I know that I can get all that I need in my community to sustain me very happily without animal products in my diet.

His reasons were always based on the animosity he has towards the industry that wiped out family farms. His grandparents ran a hog farm in Illinois all their lives, and now they can't afford to anymore, not because there are more vegetarians, but because of the factory farm industry. So their operation has been replaced by a much more cruel operation. His reasons also included the fact that he was trying to have a low impact on the earth, to live a minimal life, and oppose the pressures of corporate commercial culture.

Now he can find meat, eggs and dairy that are locally produced, antibiotic- and hormone-free, and often organic, his support of being vegan has changed. I still have a sense that vegan diets are healthier, regardless of whether the treatment of the animals ultimately sacrificed is "ideal".

So I get really antsy (understatement) about our son suddenly (albeit gradually) incorporating animal products into his diet when he's with his dad (a lot - I work full time and my husband is stay-at-home dad). He is a very healthy vegan boy; he's typical of a 3-year-old in that he doesn't like to eat much variety. But the ice cream cone (for all he knew it was soy) and chocolate milk he had the other day with Dad was still a treat he innocently enjoyed.

I am terrified about these changes in my family. I know that I have to be tolerant of my husband's choice and try to reach a compromise for the sake of my son. However I fear the loss of my husband's support in keeping true to vegan values.

Are there any folks out there in a similar situation? What do y'all say to the whole "humane farming" movement and its supporters who may turn away from being vegan because of it?:confused:

[Christa]

My husband has never been vegan nor vegetarian. Sometimes it bothers me more that others. I am feeling a bit a sensitive about it recently, but he is a very open minded eater & eats primarily vegan food at home except for the cheese that he eats a few time a week and occasionally cooking meat on the barbecue.

He lived and worked in California while I was going to grad school in Colorado for some time, so I was alone out here with the kids for the first 2 1/2 yrs & pretty much got my way with their eating. I have had a hard time, too with some stuff that has been introduced into their diets in the past 2 yrs since he moved out here. My older daughter was almost exclusively vegan until 2 1/2; the younger one was only 4 months old when he moved out here.

My reasons for being vegan also primarily center on animal welfare, and my husband's father was a butcher. However, I am the stay at home parent here (except for a few hours/month of out of the home work).

Basically, I have decided that I am going to try to compromise, but felt that my husband needed to respect my reasons for not wanting the kids to eat meat if he wanted me to respect his right to assert his beliefs on the kids as well. He needs to make some compromise, too. If it were entirely up to me, the kids would be vegan. If it were entirely up to my husband, they would be eating cheetos and bologna in their lunches.

The compromise that I decided I could live with was agreeing to have them be lacto-ovo vegetarians & he has agreed not to try to sneak them meat. I told him that, when they are old enough to truly understand what meat is (maybe age 3 or 4), they can decide if they want to eat it. The older one is 4 1/2 & my husband thinks that I have brain washed her b/c she is vehemently opposed to eating meat. I have told her where meat comes from & why Mommy chooses not to eat it, but I haven't made anything up.

This is getting long, but my point is, that maybe some kind of compromise on both of your parts is in order. Good luck!

[veganerd]

i have had somewhat of a similar situation that i posted about a month ago or so. my daughter will be 5 next month and has been vegan since birth and her mother was vegan for 2 years before she was born as well as a very outspolen ar activist. my daughter is really proud about being vegan and can express her reasons why very well when questioned by others. my daughters mother and i no longer live together and my daughter lives with me however her mother now eats meat and has tried to force it on my daughter as well. and tried to make her promise not to tell me. this made my daughter very upset. i think we finally have the situation settled now. (her mother agreed to only feed her vegan food when she visits her)
but situations like these really suck

[Erin Pavlina]

KKMC,

You're in a tough situation. I'm sorry this happened to you.

As to Humane Farming aspect... two things come to mind:
1. Even in humane farming the animal's life is ended far before it's time, right? I mean, do they let their chickens live 16 years before they kill them?

2. It sounds like he did not initially go vegan for animal welfare reasons, so using those against him now probably won't work. I would concentrate on the health aspects of being vegan and how much better off your son will be as a vegan.

There's a chapter on Health and Nutrition in my book, Raising Vegan Children in a Non-Vegan World that espouses the health benefits of raising a vegan child compared with giving them dairy and meat products. Click here to learn more about the book. (http://www.vegfamily.com/raising-vegan-children/index.php?src=forumpost)

There's also a section in the book about how to raise a vegan child if your spouse is not vegan.

But it won't be easy. Does he know that he doesn't have to eat over-processed soy products? A lot of people are cutting back on soy foods. Rice milk instead of soy milk.

See if he'll compromise and let your child be vegan even if he is going to eat meat. The bottom line is, though, that he has just as much say as to your son's diet as you do. If you're the one doing the cooking, just keep making really delicious, wholesome vegan meals for your son. He'll at least be healthier than most kids.

[Christa]

What Erin said makes sense & the part about death still being the end result of "humane farming" occurred to me, too, later after thinking about KKMC's question.

I have also come to the conclusion that, even if my kids eat some dairy & eggs, they are still eating much healthier than their peers who subsist on Lunchables. I do try to limit their intake of dairy & they don't really eat eggs except in baked goods that someone else has made. I am hopeful that, as they get older, they will choose to be vegan on their own.

Would the arguement about less of an impact on the environment be persuasive enough to your husband? John Robbins covers the issue of how much grain it takes to create a pound of meat or a pound of milk in his book "Diet for a New America." It sounds like your husband was at least previously interested in living low on the food chain for the sake of minimalizing his impact on the environment. Maybe he would be willing to do the same for your son.

[duckie1978]

you should talk to your husband about the health benefits he was enjoying while eating a vegan diet. Eggs and dairy products are full of cholesterol, dairy has been linked to diabetes and asthma in children. There is more info at the pcrm.org website, they are members of the medical field who support vegan diets and reform in the science/medicine fields. These are the people I turn to for info! My husband is studying to be a pharmacist and we fight about animal testing all the time (as well as vegan diets for any future kids we might have) but it was this organization that my husband will listen to. (He has no repsect for PETA)

IMHO I think that you need to talk with your husband and explain some of the health risks that eating animal products can cause for your son. Children in the US have clogged arteries b/c of the "hidden" cholesterol in "good" foods like dairy. I am sure tha the small amounts your son has been given haven't caused any serious harm though. Tell him that you are concerned with his long term health, children who are raised with healthy eating habits continue to eat healthy foods as adults and pass it on to their kids. Because I had all this actual medical info to give my husband, he has _finally_ agreed to raise our children as vegan as possible until they are able to decide for themselves. Maybe this arrangement would work for you two also?

Best of luck with this!

www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/faq.html

[kkmc]

Thank you for all your comments, I appreciate your support. At this time, we are talking about it in spurts, negotiating a lot of things right now, and I am determined to keep the dialog open. I have decided that it is acceptable for him to eat meat, eggs, dairy, and it seems that he would only get significant portions from the most humane sources (but I understand he's not going to lose sleep over the little bit of dairy & egg in his cornbread he ate at the diner).

For health reasons I think he agrees that moderation is the key. I know from reading John Robbins' FOOD REVOLUTION and listening to Neal Barnard talk about his FOODS THAT FIGHT PAIN book that the smallest amount of meat can cause problems with cholesterol, etc., so I intend to remind him of these things he may have never fully informed himself about, for our son's sake if not for his own sake. He's most concerned about eating food that is in its most natural form. The soy milk and rice milk and the products made from them are too artificial for him.

Recently we read Michael Pollan's article in the New York Times Magazine called AN ANIMAL'S PLACE which made some convincing points about how chickens and cows have actually only survived and multiplied as a species because we eat them, that their relationship to us as our food has been "in the interest" of their evolution. My husband's experience on his grandparents' farm gives him a much different perpective on death as a part of life, than say, someone like me who grew up in suburbia.

Thank you for the link to the PCRM site, it's good for me to refresh myself on the facts and remind him about it, too. Thank you to everyone who have posted so far, this has been really helpful, I appreciate your support and advice, keep it coming.

[kkmc]

veganerd,
I'm curious, you mentioned that your ex now eats meat after having been very actively vegan before; what kinds of reasoning has influenced her to turn this way? I am very sympathetic to your situation, thank you for speaking up. I am proud of you and your daughter for being true to yourselves.

[veganerd]

yes she was a very outspoken activist arested at demos and for cd's and used to travel to demos all over the us and is just very apathetic now. and really no amount of trying to educate her will do anything because she allready knows all the arguments. she is just about the most apathetic person i know really and has become exactly what she used to put down.

[Lesley Dove]

Veganerd, a turnaround like this to complete apathy and meat-eating after such keen AR activism and veganism is very odd and makes me wonder if your ex is suffering from severe depression? What other possible explanation could there be?

Lesley

[Lesley Dove]

Karen, unfortunately for you and your marriage your husband's choice to do a turnaround to eating meat is his own choice, and whether you can accept remaining with him as an animal eater or not is your choice (I could not cope with that personally), but as HE is the one who has moved the goalposts, and you and he presumably agreed together that your son would be raised vegan, then I would put my foot down that your son should be allowed to remain vegan as was agreed, until he is old enough to decide otherwise for himself, but if you teach him your values and raise him as an animal respecter he is unlikely to want to change and eat animals. Your husband is being very unreasonable in my view and I really feel for you so much.

Lesley

[veganerd]

yes she does have problems with depression

[Christa]

One more thought - I don't know where the humanely raised cattle that your husband is eating are coming from, but I just read a review of a book called "Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West." If the cattle he wants to eat are being grazed on public and/or Western lands, this book might cause him to think twice about the environmental impact.

The reviewer stated that: the book brings the reader to "the conclusion that grazing is an incredibly destructive form of agriculture; if anything, it would seem to be far worse even than factory farms." I haven't read the book, but it looks interesting, although not inexpensive. The book apparently retails for US$45, and is edited by George Wuerthner and Mollie Matteson.

[go4green]

Since your husband is most concerned about eating food that is in its most natural form, maybe buying him (or yourself) a good vegan raw food cookbook , would get him passionate in a better direction...there's nothing processed there!

I know some people that eat entirely this way, I have read that it would be good for everyone to eat about 75% raw foods (non-animal foods, sushi doesn't count). I was totally amazed at the variety of recipes!

Good luck, that's a tough dilemma. ~Jenna