Vent-Rant- stupid people

[tricia]

Ok I go on to mothering.com there is a thread on there driving me nuts.... some people are so beyond uninformed... i wanted u to read it... and if u r more experienced then i am u and belong you can actually post a reply.... im new and sometimes i get my facts messed up....

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101691

even if u dont post a reply u can see how many uninformed individuals there are out there.... Ergh :rolleyes:

[mum2sarah]

Ya'know, I am a Mothering.com member, and I've entered similar discussions on there... They just talk right over you like they don't even hear you. I hate to say it's a lost cause, but *sigh* it just seems to me like these psuedo-natural mommas that simply flirt with vegetarianism/veganism are actually worse than most mainstream omnivores I know. You would think that Peggy O'Mara's veg-friendliness would make for an enlightened Mothering.com membership, but sadly, these people *think* they actually know what they are talking about, which is worse, like I said, than completely SAD diet people, because they tend to either just think you're nuts or are curious enough to actually listen to your reasons. But give people a grain of truth and they think they've earned their PhD's, KWIM? I understand your frustration, but I truly find those in-betweeners or ex-veggies the hardest to convince that they could be mistaken. The saddest part is how they perpetuate common misconceptions.... If I think of anything good to add to the discussion, perhaps I'll try talking to the wall again, but I'm kinda burned out with that particular type of discussion on that particular discussion board.... I try to go there mainly for parenting advice and keep food out of it. Maybe that's defeatist of me, I don't know...

[Fiona]

This is reminiscent of the recent 'reformed vegetarians...' discussion here. What I don't understand is when people say they don't feel good on a vegan/vegetarian diet, and decide to eat meat/other animal products again because their bodies 'need' it. That doesn't sound very scientific to me - what have they identified is missing from their diets that meat etc can provide? I guess if they could answer that question, they might have a more balanced vegetarian diet in the first place.

Fiona

[tricia]

These people are so out of it.... i jus dont get it ...how can u feel better when u eat meat...yuck..all that flesh, saturated fat, anitbiotics, hormones, etc...how can u feel better.... i jus dont get it.... i know its a lost cause to even fight about it... oh well... i saw that and i needed to vent that night.... this is the only place i got...lol.... cuz on other boards even if its vegan or vegetarian there is always someone who eats meat or is a vegetarian who claims they need chicken at least 3 x a mnth in order to feel healthy...like i say there is only one carnivore in our family...and she has lots of fur and meows.....lol.... vegan food doesnt exist in my city...

[mum2sarah]

I agree that it's not scientificailly logical to feel better simply *because* of eating meat. I cannot believe there's a causal relationship whatsoever. Humans are not carnivores, regardless of blood type, allergies, individual body chemistry, etc. None of that can change our herbivore bowels and herbivore teeth, or allow us to eat raw flesh like *true* natural carnivores can. In my opinion, these people are suffering either from a strong placebo effect, or never ate a well-balanced veg diet and may not know how to fix it without simply going back to the SAD diet that is familiar to them. It's very disheartening, and I have only recently realized just how many of these quasi or "reformed" vegetarians are out there... The only comfort I can take is that at least these people are consuming fewer animal foods than the average person, which means fewer animals suffering.

[alexis]

there's a great book called 'food smart'...it's not vegan or even vegetarian, but the reccommended foods are very close to being vegan...it's like the authour is saying that animal food are unnecessary and may even be hazardous to your health and if they are to be consumed at all, they should be used sparingly... my mom was very receptive to that book's suggestions because the word 'vegan' wasn't mentioned even though the diet very similar to being vegan...

[annie7]

A quote from someone named Cathe on that thread...
"Since I don't want to overdo on soy, we now eat some fish, poultry and eggs and I feel much better - still a mostly vegan diet but supplemented with animal foods. "
Who are these people trying to kid other than themselves? If you "supplement" with animal stuff, why be labeled vegan? There's no such thing as mostly vegan. That's like saying someone is just a little bit pregnant!

[tricia]

In my opinion... in order to use the label vegan you have to strive for a vegan lifestyle...not jus in food but also other things such as cleaning stuff, clothes, or anything to that contains animal products.... etc

i dont really call myself vegan...im more of a transitioning vegan cuz some hidden ingredients get by me from time to time.... but i jus know not to buy it next time.... im on too much of an limited income to jus throw it out or donate it....

i love my soy milk etc...and i got a cookbook about cooking with more whole foods...cuz im tryin to get ideas outside of eating fakes all the time...but ive only been doing this for a few mnths...im still learning.... but its a fun and happier life now... and i feel better now after eating...im hardly ever bloated and i noticed my periods and hormones have shifted enuff so i dont break out as much, and im losing weight and not even trying... im much more of a healthier person...and im still not 100% after dealing with my radiation and my disease....

[Raven67]

I posted on the mothering.com thread, too. I noticed Erin P. has posted heavily on the thread as well. I am not too surprised by the ignorance of some people. I am actually glad to see a handful of veggie people putting up a good fight there. But, it is very frustrating. I love all the nice people who are saying, "oh, I have compassion for animals, and I don't think they should be treated badly. But, I think eating meat, etc...is ok." They are really so uninformed, they don't recognize the contradiction. People basically don't want to know what happens to animals. They choose not to hear or, or choose not to believe it. Sadly, a few people actually don't care, and seem to have shut off their natural compassion. In regard to informed vegetarians, I think many people who go veg for other than ethical reasons are vulnerable to falling off the wagon. I think it is the awareness of animal cruelty that gets inside and sticks. How can anyone continue to eat meat when they really let the reality of Agribusiness sink in? Anyway, I also don't believe many of these reformed vegetarians. I think they lie and exaggerate. I wish people would just say, "you know what, I just want to eat meat, and I don't care about all the reasons why I shouldn't." At least it would be honest!

[tricia]

Well i jus posted on their...i should piss off a few people... i jus didnt get the post where one person stating they lost a pregnancy cuz they didnt eat eggs.... ive been to school... miscarriages are a complicated thing to understand and are not caused by not eating animal products.... who knows.... its jus a weird thread.... ppl r sooooo uninformed and blame work and family for not knowing how to make a vegan diet work.... who knows... lol..im in a mood today....lol.... so ya betta watch out.... :D

[annie7]

I read your post on that site you gave, and the response after it (by "morson" "marrison" something like that) really Honked me off!!I'm gonna try to do some quick research to help give you something to wing back!!

[tricia]

Ok did it not sound in that one post that girl said she had a miscarriage and then it said my body was tellin me i needed eggs.... ok maybe i read it wrong but it came off as she was sayin her body miscarried due to no eggs....

its true though that certain cultures were not always meat based and are fine....japanese, chinese, rastafarran (but i dont think that will blow over too well)...lol.., certain tribes in africa and i know this cuz i spoke to some chick from africa in my building yesterday bout it....

that morsan or whatever i think tries to show off...on another thread she is annoying.... its in the good eats section too... its under the thread "A question for vegans".... who knows... i guess i should of kept my mouth shut...lol.... hehehehehehe :D

[annie7]

Looks like China, ancient Greece, and ancient Rome were veg*n cultures according to info at http://www.msnusers.com/CrazyVegan/humanherbivore.msnw . You have to wade through alot to get to that point. I also have heard that Mediteranean and Indian cultures are predominately so, although I can't find anything to verify it. Although the site I posted has alot of stuff I disagree with, it's an interesting read. Kind of bogs down in places, though. you might find stuff I missed, as I was skimming pretty fast, but I did think this passage from the article was thought provoking:

In order to back the theory that prehistoric people did not eat as much meat as we might well assume, I decided to look some of them up. The ones that I found were:
*Australopithecus aferencis: "dentition suggests herbivore"
*Australopithecus Africanis: "scavenger. Dentition indicates that it was an omnivore collecting plant material, scavenging, etc."
*Australopithecus boisei: "vegetarian"
*Austalopithecus robustus: "vegetarian. Dentition and wear patterns indicate tough plant material as well as berries and fruit."

The hominids, including Homo erectus, Homo Habilis, and Homo Sapiens, were all said to be omnivorous. However, this could be a biased opinion based on the way humans eat today. Humans are NOT hunters. The standard American diet is one based on a scavenging theory; not a carnivorous or omnivorous one. This theory being supported by the fact that humans do not hunt on their own, and that they eat muscle tissue. Whereas true carnivores and omnivores prefer to lap up blood and to eat internal organs; leaving the muscle for scavengers.

Hmmm..... people should get a whole new perspective on that famous "caveman diet", huh?

[tricia]

mmmmmmmm yummy blood and internal organs...... :p

u know what im stickin with my vegan lifestyle.... that thought just grossed me the heck out.... all i have pictured in my brain is how tigers eat......good for them...not for me....lol....

[tricia]

Ok ladies and gentlemen... i researched my butt off 2nite and have come up with some facts and a response im quite happy with.... at least i think i am.... i wanted to post it here in front of my nice vegan friends who can let me know if its a good rebuttal to the remark I had received in the mothering.com forum... if anyone wants to read bout it... its at the link at the beginning of this thread...now bear with me its long....
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First off lets actually use the term vegan and vegetarian in the appropriate forms. Being Vegan is a lifestyle and the diet portion of veganism is actually called "strict vegetarianism". In order to be labelled vegan you must do your best to eliminate all animal by-products not only from your diet but from lifestyle. Such as not using wool, silk, leather etc. No one can be a "True 100% Vegan" because their are animal byproducts in many things that have no alternatives (i.e. tires, medicines, etc). So technically based upon this defination a "Vegan Diet" doesn't really exist, its called strict vegetarianism. The term vegan is actually fairly new to begin with; one of the earliest writings that used the term vegan was in 1944, although the practice of not eating animal products began long before that.

People enter strict vegetarianism for many reasons; ethical, healthy, or religious are the most common. People who start a "strict vegetarianism" lifestyle in order to alleviate animal suffering in factory farms and usually end up transitioning to a Vegan lifestyle. People who start strict vegetarianism
due to health reason only usually partake of the strict vegetarian diet. They tend to still use wool, silk, and use cleaning supplies with animal products in them. People who start a "strict
vegetarian" diet for religious reasons equate eating flesh as impure and also may or may not use animal products in everyday things with the exception of food. As there are different reasons to be a "strict vegetarian" or a "vegan" there are also many different histories behind each.

There are many religous cultures that do not consume meat including Seventh-Day Adventists, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Muslims, and Rastafarians. Like almost any religion there are people who abide by not eating meat and others who do not. So by no means am I stating that every single Jew is a vegetarian and so forth.

Vegetarianism began thousands of years ago with people such as Pythagorus, Buddha, Plato, and Plutarch. It also hit other civilizations much more earlier than when it hit western civilization in the mid-1800s. Japanese people for instance have only been eating flesh for about the last 130 years. Now since learning about the problem of the geriatric diseases caused by an excess intake of fat in flesh, and the hazards pertaining to agricultural chemicals and additives are trying to
return to "Japanese traditional cusine". Ancient Greece had vegetarians in their society but the term "Vegetarian" was not used to describe people who did not eat meat; they were called Pythagoreans after Pythagoras who was a brilliant mathmatician and advocated a non meat diet. Even though Romans who are known as an aggresive society by all accounts were actually vegetarian and were upset at having to eat meat when the Roman troops ran out of corn. When Romans then due to certain leaders associated power with bloodshed and killed everything in sight. The poor and the roman troops (go figure) still remained on a vegetarian diet..The money hungry and crazy rulers decided to eat meat, but the majority of the culture did remain vegetarian.

Quote:

"In order to back the theory that prehistoric people did not eat as much meat as we might well assume, I decided to look some of them up. The ones that I found were:
*Australopithecus aferencis: "dentition suggests herbivore"
*Australopithecus Africanis: "scavenger. Dentition indicates that it was an omnivore collecting plant material, scavenging, etc."
*Australopithecus boisei: "vegetarian"
*Austalopithecus robustus: "vegetarian. Dentition and wear patterns indicate tough plant material as well as berries and fruit."

The hominids, including Homo erectus, Homo Habilis, and Homo Sapiens, were all said to be omnivorous.
However, this could be a biased opinion based on the way humans eat today. Humans are NOT hunters.
The standard American diet is one based on a scavenging theory; not a carnivorous or omnivorous one.
This theory being supported by the fact that humans do not hunt on their own, and that they eat muscle tissue.
Whereas true carnivores and omnivores prefer to lap up blood and to eat internal organs; leaving the
muscle for scavengers."

It is clear that 90% of humanity have subsisted on a 90% vegetarian diet.
Modern carnivorous men and women are the exception not the rule.

There is much more info that could of been added to this but I didnt feel like typing for days.
I am not stating to anyone that you should be vegetarian or vegan. Its a personal choice but its
also not a new fad that should be just diregarded because its not part of the Americanized norm.
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Let me know what you think.... thanks guys... and please be honest... i am by all accounts not a great writer but i try my best..

[alexis]

"its true though that certain cultures are not meat based and are fine.... chinese, "


You are kidding right? The chinese culture is about as un-vegan as it can get. The chinese believe in serving up at least four or five courses of meat to guests at a normal resturant dinner and the thing is the more meat, the better, and if you want to offend your dinner host, just go and eat the veggies and grains. It's a whole wealth and status thing. And the modern chinese are even worse, bread usually contains eggs and milk as the second and third ingredients and doctors at the hospitals would advise you to eat eggs and milk for breakfast...DISGUSTING...and do i have to mention the 'delicacies' like bird's nest (Swallow's salivia), snake, dog meat, worms, frogs, turtles, basically, they would serve the entire zoo up for dinner if they were allowed to...that's why i usually laugh when people tell me that the chinese have a vegan-friendly culture, the truth is totally the opposite...
Sorry, tricia, if i come across as mean, i didn't mean it, but sometimes it gets ridiculous when people tell me that my own culture is veg friendly because they just plain aren't...

[tricia]

Ok...i didnt say nothin bout chinese culture...lol.... and ancient chinese and japanese cultures were strict vegetarians.... i have a website that explains through the dynasties how that has changed due to "power" and like you said the more meat means more wealth etc...

i didnt think u were mean either..... good info tho... like i say i did alot of research last night and had to leave out a whole lot of pertinent info... but i think i might just for the fun of it write an essay or somethin on the history of vegetarianism.... due to the fact i actually liked reading all that info.... lol.... and for me writing essays bout it helps keep it in my brain....

[Raven67]

Alexis, I am sure living in Asia you would know a lot more about the Chinese first hand. But, I think the idea that the Chinese (or at least Chinese food) can be vegan friendly comes from the well-respected China-Oxford study of diet, and the work of Colin Campbell in particular. For those who are not familiar with it, this very large, epidemiological study correlated diet with chronic disease throughout different regions of China. Apparently, there were large, rural areas (probably the poorer areas) where a near-vegan to totally-vegan diet was consumed by the population (basically rice and vegetables). Of course, in these regions, despite hardship and poverty, chronic illnesses like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease were practically unknown. In the regions of China with a more meat-based diet, chronic diseases were more common. The correlation was very clear and strong, the more animal products, the more chronic disease. So, I guess because this study is often cited at vegetarian conferences, there is a enduring belief that the Chinese are near-vegan, but I guess we should stipulate that "certain parts of rural China subsist on a near-vegan diet," and not make assumptions about such a huge, complex culture. BTW, I have always felt that Chinatown in my city was not animal friendly, with all the dead ducks and pigs hanging in the shop windows. I assumed it had to do with immigration and mixing cultures, and that it did not resemble the
'real" China. But, you have cleared that up for me. At least it is possible to get a vegan meal there, even if your waiter thinks you are ordering "poor man's food!"

[tricia]

no one has commented on my info...or the way i brought it up...other than china...my little blurb ok...lol....

:confused:

[Raven67]

Oh Tricia, I thought your response was great. I especially like the focus on not dismissing veganism as some kind of fad, because humans have always eaten a vegan or near-vegan diet. Good work!

[tricia]

Raven, thank ya..... like i said i wish i could of put more info that i found but i would of been typing for a long time....and it was late...lol...

[Erin Pavlina]

Your information is good and well presented. But experience and psychology suggest no one will read the whole thing.

I've found that short bursts and questions get a higher response and reading rate. Wish it weren't so... but that has been my experience.

It was great of you to compile all of that information though. So when are you going to come work for me? ;)

[tricia]

Erin,

This person in particular will read it though...she is jus one of those people that needs to prove everyone else wrong.... trust me she will read it...lol....

hey give me somethin to write about and then we can talk...lol....

Ok well im gonna post this info and see if i get some evil responses back... probably will and then we will hear the whole hunter theory blah blah blah.....lol...

This is why i love this forum.... i dont have to defend my choices and hear the same excuses over and over again.... man i love you guys...:D :p

[alexis]

Yeah well, Raven, you do have a point there...my mom tells us stories of how her neighbours who had sixteen kids, were so badly off in the sixties, they would be lucky to have rice and soy sauce to put on the table every day and an egg each and a chicken to share during Chinese New Year..but those kids grew up fine...so if people can grow up on rice and soy sauce, why can't we live and even thrive on a well planned vegan diet? There's no reason why we can't...and anyway, we'll be the ones living alot longer than omnis..so guess who'll have the last laughs? Yay us...:D

[tricia]

I knew the other person was gonna read my long spleel and challenge me....and has happened....arrrgh...im gonna be writing a 10 page report on the history of vegetarianism.... and its bugging me she is saying veganism is the exact same thing as strict vegetarianism...and its not.... arrrrggggh........

im jus cranky this week... got a kid home for the next 2 wks...
:eek:

[annie7]

Ok, I'm nosey as can be... I went back to that site just to read the reply to your post and all I can say is...OMG you were soooooo right! Did I read more into it, or does it sound like that person went to the library to get a recipe book just to prove you wrong?
I just got a book from the library on traditional diets...
I will definitely try to throw some more web sites your way. You go girl!

[tricia]

Thank you...thank you.... i had fun tho writing it all down.... ive already started on my rebuttal.... yeah jus seems like she wants me to admit im wrong and she right... i knew she was gonna read that whole long spleel....

oh well its good for me to find out all bout vegetarianism... its helping me know more info to combat against my family who will persecute me this xmas.... so i guess this is good practice....

all this is doing is making me love my nice vegetarian lifestyle even more....lol....

and be as nosey as you want... its fun....

:D

[annie7]

here we go..... A site for a comparative study is http://www.ivu.org/history/early/index.html
Here is a religious perspective and breakdown of each religion's ethics, morals, and whys for veg...
http://www.ivu.org/religion/
Here is a group of scientific studies and research including some control group studies...
http://www.ivu.org/science/articles/

I'll keep looking and pass along what I find! good luck and get going!;)

[tricia]

I used that site...thats where i got alot of useful info.... like minds think alike....

[annie7]

The French naturalist George Louis Leclerc, more commonly known as Count Buffon (1707-1788) was member of the Academy of Science, administrator of the Garden of the King and with several collaborators wrote 'Natural History' in 36 volumes. Buffon stated that: "Man could live on vegetables alone. However the whole of nature is not enough to satisfy his intemperance and the inconsistent variety of his appetite. Man by himself consumes and devours more meat than all the other animals together and not out of necessity but as a form of abuse."

[tricia]

Annie,

Seriously thats freaky...i picked that quote to end my next rebuttal with.... i thought it was quite thought provoking and made you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[annie7]

BTW, here is a site that has control groups (vegan and non) and tells what ailments veganism fixes or alieviates the symtoms of. http://www.health101.org/art_studies.htm#1

[tricia]

Annie,

Your just full of info and help...thank you very much.... are you having as much fun as i am ......lol.. :P

[annie7]

I love this stuff!!
I would love to drive up to Canada and spend a day brainstorming with you... then go knock on Morsan's(?) door with armfuls of flip folders, index cards, and a big ol' pie chart!! LOL Have fun and keep us informed!
PS... It's freaky that you said "freaky" cause my daughter and I just watched "Freaky Friday"!! Ha ha ha!!!:)

[tricia]

Heck ya... that would be awesome... anytime man.... i got loads of crayons and markers here for that pie chart.... lol....

i will post my 2nd rebuttal here then see what you think... and then post it there.... she probably invistigating all the anti-vegetarian websites and coming up with her own rebuttals... this is probably gonna go back and forth...til one of us gives... :D :p

[alexis]

Originally posted by annie7
The French naturalist George Louis Leclerc, more commonly known as Count Buffon (1707-1788) was member of the Academy of Science, administrator of the Garden of the King and with several collaborators wrote 'Natural History' in 36 volumes. Buffon stated that:


Annie, what a cool quote. I'm gonna write it in every christmas card i send out now..muahaha...i must be really evil...wanting to drive all ignorant omnis out of their minds this Christmas...but,hey, it's true...

[sarahrose]

O.K you guys, you havent seen me for awile ( I've been snowboarding with my sweetie) but I'm back! I posted a reply under the name Arwen (sarahrose, my real name, was taken!) That woman that you guys are talking about is really annoying, and so are alot of other people on there for that matter! They probably just havent a clue about nutrition and are 'salad' vegetarians, which is the only conclusion I can find to their health problems related to their 'veganism'. Otherwise, why would this diet work for all of the well informed people on this site and not for them? One woman stated on that thread that she had no idea what nutrients were in her food! That statement alone speaks for itself!

[tricia]

Hellooooooo everyone... ok finally finished my 2nd rebuttal... tried to yesterday but i had company.... so i couldnt write out the info.... let me know your thoughts on it.... be honest...and yes its long and this person is beyond annoying and will read it....

my sentences may be off cuz im cutting and pasting... much quicker....

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For two centuries vegetarians have defined vegetarianism. This is beginning to change. Today when someone says "I am a vegetarian" it could mean that person eats chicken and fish but not beef and pork. Numerous recent articles in newspapers and magazines have referred to "pesco-vegetarians" and "pollo-vegetarians." Such labels dilute the meaning of vegetarianism and cause confusion, as does the misuse of the word "vegetarian."

Studies have shown that tribes of aborigines and South-African tribes staples of foods are nuts, seeds, fruits, and vegetables. A common misconception of early humans as hunters is common and a view of early humans as gatherers is more accurate.

Vegetarianism was developed by the ancient greeks, still commonly called Pythagoreans even today. The romans borrowed many ideas from the Greeks including vegetarianism. Even though there were parts in history where it looks as though vegetarianism went extinct it didn't. In all actuality it was very much kept alive through small tribes and cutlures that do exist today but are way smaller then our westernized culture and some still actually fear explaining their life to outsiders and exist within their own culture instead a meat eating culture. Just is the case with the Amish who live their culture in the modernized technological world of today.

In regards to the human digestive tract heres some info for you. The length of a small intestine in a Carnivore is 3 to 6 times body length and an Omnivores is 4 to 6 times body length and herbivore's intestines are 10 to more than 12 times body length. The human small intestine is 10 to 11 times body length. So we are actually to long to be either a True Carnivore or Omnivore. Other traits that our body has with the herbivore includes; the functions of our kidneys, liver, colon, stomach, stomach acidity, stomach capacity, saliva...etc.

Its obvious that our natural instincts are more non-carnivorous. Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would probably be sickened by the thought of doing it themselves. Insteading of eating our meat straight off the carcass and eating it raw we boil, bake, or fry it and disguise the actual taste with spices and sauces. We also lack the raw abilities to be good hunters. It wasn't until the "invention" of arrowheads, hatchets, and other implements that killing and capturing prey became possible.

"The only animal with probable omnivorous morphology that exists, is the bear, which has some pointed teeth and others that are flat." --Huxley
It has also been proven through study of grooves of fossilized teeth, that there was a diverse assortment of different foods. Our first human ancestors did not live predominately on meat, buds, leaves, grass, or seeds; they were also not omnivorous. They actually subsisted principally on a diet of fruit. Each tooth was closely examined and came from hominids from about 12 million years ago, which are in direct line to Homo Erectus, proved to be fruit eaters.
There will be equal debates for both sides of this issue. Scientific data will probably have many contradictions. One archeologist might believe this way while another takes the same data and makes it based more on how they think today. We will never know what happened back millions of years ago. It is much easier to find animal bones in archeological digs because they don't decompose as vegetable matter does.

Pythagoreans are tribe of individuals who did not eat meat, did not wear wool, etc. The local democrats frowned on this aristocracy and actually slaughtered many of them. Some lived their life in secrecy from fear of this happening over again. People who are slaughtered because they are considered outside of the norm is actually quite prevalent. Now in days in Pythagoreans still exist in Greece. They have followed these teachings for many generations.

Also, there is a bunch of small communities spread out throughout the world who have their own vegan communities, and have existed since the victorian times. There have been actually studies conducted on these communities and there is no lack of B12, iron, etc. They are perfectly healthy. They do not consume meat, dairy products, refined sugar, or anything that derives from an animal. These communities are much like the Amish; they are quite large but still remain unaffected by much of the outside influence and have existed for many generations. They do not call themselves vegans because they grew up on this diet way before that word was even thought of.

"Man could live on vegetables alone. However the whole of nature is not enough to satisfy his intemperance and the inconsistent variety of his appetite. Man by himself consumes and devours more meat than all the other animals together and not out of necessity but as a form of abuse." -- George Leclerc

[annie7]

After re-reading that other person's response, I have an educated guess on what she/he may attack in your post... here are some things (other than just normal typos) you may want to expand on:
2nd paragraph... "studies have shown"... site what studies and who the researcher was.
3rd paragraph... "small tribes" ... off shoots from Greece? Tell where they went globally speaking. We know not directly to the Western civilizations.
8th par.... "small communities"...same thing... that person will challenge you as to WHERE they were or are now.
3&7 "Pythagoreans"... you'll undoubtedly have to explain to her/him what that means... who it is and what the specific teachings were so there is NO question as to what you meant.
8..... I'm familiar with this study, you may want to add that the research showed that the body converted complex minerals and vitamins into what it needed, better than the subjects who actually ingested the animal product containing said vitamin.

I think the comparison to an Amish community is excellent! What an awesome example of a community within a non-accepting community!

You did a great job pulling facts together... tweak it a little and fire it off! Super job.

[tricia]

Annie.... thanks for the tweaking advice...i will definately add my paragraphs 3&7 since 7 does explain who the Pythagoreans are...but now call themselves neo-pythagoreans in greece...lol... i was soo tired when i wrote this rebuttal....xmas is driving me insane....

i used the word tribes...but probally shouldnt of... trying to find another word for like communities...but these communities are larger than what u would associate communities with.... im gonna look at it today...and reword and revamp it....

i saw my typos..ooops.... i type to fast and need to slow down..but once i get a thought in my head i just keep going....lol...

[tricia]

Ok this is my revamped updated version of my rebuttal.... any ideas or thoughts on it are greatly appreciated.... and you can be mean.... :p

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For two centuries vegetarians have defined vegetarianism. This is beginning to change. Today when someone says "I am a vegetarian" it could mean that person eats chicken and fish but not beef and pork. Numerous recent articles in newspapers and magazines have referred to "pesco-vegetarians" and "pollo-vegetarians." Such labels dilute the meaning of vegetarianism and cause confusion, as does the misuse of the word "vegetarian."

Numerous studies conducted by multiple archeologists and universities have shown that tribes of aborigines and South-African tribes staples of foods are nuts, seeds, fruits, and vegetables. A common misconception of early humans as hunters is common and a view of early humans as gatherers is more accurate.

Vegetarianism was developed by the ancient greeks. Pythagoras a brilliant mathmatician, did not belive in order to live you needed to cause bloodshed; he actually paid fisherman to throw their daily catches back into the sea. Pythagoras' beliefs were adopted by roman troops, and his teachings were instituted in the Egyptian culture. He also taught his beliefs to many people in Southern Italy. Pythagoreans are tribe of individuals who followed the teachings of Pythagoras and did not eat meat, did not wear wool, etc. The local democrats frowned on this aristocracy and actually slaughtered many of them. Some lived their life in secrecy from fear of this happening over again. People who are slaughtered because they are considered outside of the norm is actually quite prevalent. Pythagoreans still exist in Greece today, most commonly still called neo-pythagoreans but still following the same diet and lifestyle their ancestors have taught from generation to generation.

"Oh, my fellow men, do not defile your bodies with sinful foods. We have corn, we have apples bending down the branches with their weight, and grapes swelling on the vines. There are sweet-flavored herbs, and vegetables which can be cooked and softened over the fire,.....The earth affords a lavish supply of riches, of innocent foods, and offers you banquets that involve no bloodshed or slaughter: only beasts satisfy their hunger with flesh, and not even all of those, because horses, cattle, and sheep live on grass." ---Pythagoras

Even though there were parts in history where it looks as though vegetarianism went extinct it didn't. In all actuality it was very much kept alive through cultures that do exist today but are way smaller then our westernized culture and some still actually fear explaining their life to outsiders and exist within their own culture instead a meat eating culture. Just is the case with the Amish who live their culture in the modernized technological world of today.

In regards to the human digestive tract heres some info for you. The length of a small intestine in a Carnivore is 3 to 6 times body length and an Omnivores is 4 to 6 times body length and herbivore's intestines are 10 to more than 12 times body length. The human small intestine is 10 to 11 times body length. So we are actually to long to be either a True Carnivore or Omnivore. Other traits that our body has with the herbivore includes; the functions of our kidneys, liver, colon, stomach, stomach acidity, stomach capacity, saliva...etc.

Its obvious that our natural instincts are more non-carnivorous. Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would probably be sickened by the thought of doing it themselves. Insteading of eating our meat straight off the carcass and eating it raw we boil, bake, or fry it and disguise the actual taste with spices and sauces. We also lack the raw abilities to be good hunters. It wasn't until the "invention" of arrowheads, hatchets, and other implements that killing and capturing prey became possible.

"The only animal with probable omnivorous morphology that exists, is the bear, which has some pointed teeth and others that are flat." --Huxley

An anthropologist at John Hopkins conducted a study, he found evidence from the grooves of fossilized teeth, that there was a diverse assortment of different foods. Our first human ancestors did not live predominately on meat, buds, leaves, grass, or seeds; they were also not omnivorous. They actually subsisted principally on a diet of fruit. Each tooth was closely examined and came from hominids from about 12 million years ago, which are in direct line to Homo Erectus, proved to be fruit eaters.

There will be equal debates for both sides of this issue. Scientific data will probably have many contradictions. One archeologist might believe this way while another takes the same data and makes it based more on how they think today. We will never know what happened back millions of years ago. It is much easier to find animal bones in archeological digs because they don't decompose as vegetable matter does.

Also, there is a bunch of small communities spread out throughout the world, including UK, USA, Canada, China, Japan, Poland, etc; who have their own vegan communities, and have existed since the victorian times. There have been actually studies conducted on these communities and there is no lack of B12, iron, etc. They are perfectly healthy. They do not consume meat, dairy products, refined sugar, or anything that derives from an animal. The research showed that the body converted complex minerals and vitamins into what it needed, better than the subjects who actually ingested the animal product containing said vitamin. These communities are much like the Amish; they are quite large but still remain unaffected by much of the outside influence and have existed for many generations. They do not call themselves vegans because they grew up on this diet way before that word was even thought of.

"Man could live on vegetables alone. However the whole of nature is not enough to satisfy his intemperance and the inconsistent variety of his appetite. Man by himself consumes and devours more meat than all the other animals together and not out of necessity but as a form of abuse." -- George Leclerc

[sarahrose]

Everything looked great to me! The only thing I would consider would be to specify the small vegan communities that you spoke of in the last paragraph.

[tricia]

Specify.... what do u mean??

[annie7]

I think naming the region is specific enough.
BRAVO, Tricia !!! :D
Job well done!

[tricia]

Thank you for your opinions...we shall see how many others i piss off with this rebuttal...hehehehehe.....

i will be posting this msg now...so any "nosey" people are welcome...yes im talkin to u annie...lol.... :D :p

[sarahrose]

By 'specify' I just meant that whats-her-name will undoubtedly say "what small communities" or "what study?" I thought maybe a link to the site where you got the info would shut her up before she even started ;) But, either way, it sounds well written and informative. Most 'normal' people would not need it to be any more specific than it already is, because it is very straight forward. I was just trying to anticipate the reply of someone who actually went and got a book from the library just to try to prove someone wrong in a discussion forum, for god's sake!!!!!! I was pretty shocked and at the same time wished I had that much free time on my hands!

[tricia]

I jus find it hilarious that she got a book from the library.... i have alot of books here from the library...about nutrition, vegetarian recipes, but thats for me to learn what i need to to make sure im raising my kid healthy...and now im tryin to get away from the fake subs so im tryin to eat more whole foods....

i jus think this person jus wants to be right...i have a feelin she thinkin im spending days on her reply...darn i wish i had that much time....

ooh and i cant find all the websites where i got my info...i was half awake and saved some but not others.... all you need to do is type history of vegetarianism on google and read.... lol....

[sarahrose]

:mad: ARGGGG.... Now she's doing it to me (morsan) on the questions for vegans (Ithink that's it) thread! Driving me nuts!!!!

[tricia]

sarah,

i know...she dont like vegans...lol....i sent u a msg on there.... lol...

[sarahrose]

And all I was doing was warning people of the weston A Price foundation! Someone's gotta do it though.....

[tricia]

Sarah,

This morsan person is soo anti-veg its hilarious....lol... u can tell from my thread to the one you posted on to the vegetarian threads ....shes always promoting against vegetarianism.... but she hasnt responded to my last post....so i think i got her off my back.... lol.....

[xmysticprincessx]

You can all laugh when you are all like 90 or something. She might not make it up there, and if she does, she's probably going to have every health problem out there and then some. And you will still be independently living on your own and have more energy and look better than other seniors who will be young enough to be your kids.

[alexis]

Well, just remember, don't get too upset with her and get a stroke or something and you'll be the one having the very last laugh...hah :D

[mochamama]

{{{tricia}}}

This is such an interesting thread. I've been away for a while, otherwise I would have jumped in sooner.

A couple of those people on that thread (obviously) are into Weston Price and Nourishing Traditions. For those not familiar with it, it is aggressively and to my mind, hatefully anti-vegetarian. It is to nutrition what Rush Limbaugh is to politics. The authors of NT even uses the word "politically correct" to diss vegetarians.

They like to use anthropology as a basis for "eating like your ancestors" which ends up being a heavy meat diet. Heart kabobs anyone? :D

They believe, much like the Atkins folks (many whom revere NT and Weston Price) that cholesterol is good for you, eat up. And that there is a *conspiracy* among nutritionists and medical people to deny you your healthy cholsterol. Since there's no proof of this assertion, they like to showcase the Masai, who drink blood, as the healthiest people in the world--completely ignoring that the average Masai male dies in his early 40s!

Of course, in terms of scholarship it is an absolute mess. The science is very hit or miss. The author (and the Weston Price Foundation) abuse science and nutrition, but use a scientific-y lingo to make themselves sound smart. Paradox!

They cite scientific sources, but if you actually check out their sources, they often do not say what the NT authors claim. They use scientific research to slam vegetarianism the same way people used to use the Bible to justify slavery.

I have had my debates with followers of this creed, which have ended in pain. It is a philosophy based on faith, not on science, so if you question it---you are setting yourself up for their abuse. Its like debating with the door-to-door evangelists--an exercise in futility.

Try and take heart. And rely on your own good sense, your positive curiosity about life, and your thankfully working brain.

I'm not sure a lot of vegetarians know about Weston Price and NT. I wish I had been warned. Its a darn shame that such people are trying to throw mud on the ideas of vegetarianism---but let them try. I will stand by the geniuses and great thinkers who advocate vegetarianism--Pythogras, Einstein, George Bernard Shaw, Ghandi, Leonardo da Vinci , Charles Darwin, A Albert Schweitzer, Susan B Anthony and so many otehr people I admire. Who would you rather stand with? LOL!

[mochamama]

As for Chinese cuisine---

Alexis--I totally take your word for it that Chinese cuisine is very into meat.

But---what about the China Study? That found that Chinese people who ate a plant-based diet had fewer diet related diseases?

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/01/6.28.01/China_Study_II.html

Is it true that--perhaps due to scarcity of meat--Chinese cuisine uses meat more as a garnish and that the bulk of the diet is plant-based?

(I know plant-based is quite far from vegetarian, but still this study is interesting)

Could it be with more affluence, some Chinese are eating more meat, nad therefore suffering from more diet-related disease?

[sarahrose]

Finally someone with some sense!!! You nailed the weston a price foundation right on the head-those things you said are completely correct, and that is exactly what I was trying to say in that thread, so that the woman who was beggining to doubt her vegetarianism would not be misled into eating a deathly diet. For telling the truth, I was attacked. You are right though. Anyone who believes that stuff with no proof will not change their minds, and arguing is a losing battle for everyone. I just hope I made someone at least think about it! As to chinese food, I read somewhere that the wealthy chinese ate alot of meat, and had short life spans, but the poor people who could not afford meat lived long, healthy lives.

[tricia]

Wow morsan went from a long rebuttal to my post to a very short one.... jus debating the fact that yes we can hunt and eat meat raw... yuck yuck yuck and that its hard for our bodys to eat plants raw or somethin......who knows....the battle is still on....lol... yet she really didnt give me much to rebuttal too.... i think she knows im right...hehehehe... im full of myself today...hehehehe...... man im evil.... lol....

there is alot of antiveg people man.... especially on yahoo...they have groups dedicated to it.... oh well i like questioning the norm...and i keep seeing all this crap bout soy causing early puberty and male vegans with smaller penises and such.... i know it aint true its jus annoying.... lol....

its uneducated or unread people who keep teachin multiple people the bad things associated with veganism.... i jus wish people would read and evaluate for themselves...oh well... im rambling.... im bored.... lol.... :D :p

[Fiona]

Having read some of the recent vegan related posts on the Mothering.com website, I took a peek at the site's 'User Agreement'. It says: 'You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

1- Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

Does anyone else think this rule is being ignored?! Personally, I prefer the friendly, supportive and polite atmosphere on these boards.

Fiona

[tricia]

Fiona....

uh oh....am i guilty :confused:

well technically i dont think so.... i was being informative...i think...lol... uh ohh....lol.... :p

[Fiona]

No, Tricia, I really only had one person in mind! (I was thinking how polite you and Sarahrose were being, considering the level of provocation).

Fiona

[mochamama]

I haven't been to Mothering in donkey's years before this. Is morsan always so antagonistic and bullying?

And is Arwen here, by the way? morsan seems to think we're buddies. I guess all vegs must know each other. :p

Yup, its astonishing and dismaying the vast amount of anti-veg crap on the web. I was a veg for 18 years before I ever stumbled across any anti-veg hate material. I was shocked, because I couldn't understand the hatred directed at what is such a beautiful and compassionate philosophy.

I've sometimes wished someone would compile a website, or write a book, that would serve as a rebuttal to some of the anti-veg propaganda. There's a few wonderful articles that take Weston Price/Sally Fallon on, but not enough. But I can understand perhaps why no one has yet---better to focus on the positives of vegetarianism. To do such a project, you'd have to wallow in such intense and ugly negativity .

[tricia]

Fiona,

Just checkin...im known to piss people off.... :P and i get to do that now more than ever since i've "gone to the other side" hehehehe....

Mocha,

If you read in the activism forum under the hating peta thread...shes the same way.... ive noticed in all veg threads shes antagnostic and annoying.... but at least she put a short rebuttal on my last long comment... And yeah i saw that comment bout you guys being friends... i couldnt stop laughin.... lol.... us veg's gotta stay together....all for one and one for all....

tofu anyone??? :P

p.s. tell me someone saw the fact that the comment she posted to me comes across as raw meat is ok versus plant based food that has to be cooked in order to be digestable....

yuck raw meat...yuck any meat....

man i love you guys.... :D

[alexis]

She seriously thinks raw meat is better???EWWWWWWWWW man...even when i wasn't vegan i couldn't look sashimi or steak tartare in the face and not go green...now...i can't go near meat without hurling...i mean is she for real??? Raw meat would rot inside anyone's stomach...i'd rather have fermenting veggies(Is that even possible???) in my stomach than rotting meat...now i've lost my apetite for my corn chips...i'd echo you on this Tricia...eww any meat...

[mochamama]

Some Weston Price/Nourishing Traditions followers believe raw meat is great. Cooking destroys nutrients, and is closer to what cavemen ate, etc.

They are also great proponents of raw milk, and even suggest it should be fed to small children.

I hope everyone is cautious about dealing with these folks. At first they come off sounding appalling ignorant, and you think they might be gracious to learn some facts. But they often are very well versed in their WP/NT doctrine. They have a patter down that is designed to draw in and inflame argument.

morsan is typical. Look at her posts--demanding specification, ridiculing others' posts as mere speculation--when she offers nothing more concrete than opinion herself. (Ironically, Nourishing Traditions is almost wholly a subjective work). But its designed to try to knock you off balance. And if they can't do that, then they start with the personal attacks. I've seen such personal attacks sink to very low levels.

I've seen them troll veg boards, looking for converts (this may sound paranoid, but they do speak of 'the revolution" where everyone suddenly wakes up to the truth of their beliefs).

I still don't know quite how to handle them. On on hand, when some person new to vegetarianism asks a question about veg, wanting advice, and the NT brigade jumps in saying veg is unhealthy, blah blah. . .I feel honor bound to speak up. It would be a sad shame if the new person, or people reading the board, are left with the impression that NT is the truth, and there is a consensus.

Often people who've seen an argument over NT and how nasty it gets, are reluctant to speak up and say they disagree with NT. That's understandable. But its hard to watch someone get advice for giving their small child raw milk, when you know it could be potentially dangerous.

I do draw the line when, like morsan, the tone gets ugly and personal. Then I withdraw. I am interested in exchange of information and civil debate--quarrels are for children.

So, folks, be forewarned, and be careful.

[tricia]

I am still tryin to figure out how raw meat could be healthy.... hellooooo havent there been people dying all over the world from salmonella etc from undercooked and contaminated meat.....

are we the only rational people out there.... seriously eating raw meat can kill you and your family.....

[annie7]

This thread used to be a spectator sport for me, but I'm getting to riled up. I registered on that discussion board today! Haven't personally addressed her, but I'm sure she will attack. Let's circle those wagons!! See ya round the boards!!!:D

[tricia]

Annie

whats ur name on there...so i can say hi when i c ya...lol... i said hi to sarah but she never said hi back :(

lol....

[annie7]

ummm... It's Annie. I'm not such a creative type, huh? :p

[tricia]

mine aint that creative.... tricia80....tricia was taken...lol..... so i added my birthdate on the end....

[mochamama]

I've decided not to return to that thread. As morsan started personal attacks, I have to draw the line. I've been involved in such idiotic threads before, and its sucked up too much of my personal time.

I have projects to finish and can't be drawn into a battle with fanatics that will only whip them up into religious frenzy. I feel sorry for any innocent bystanders they happen to confuse or mislead along the way, but hopefully the bystanders will do their own research, as I've already suggested.

If you continue with that thread, I urge you not to get stressed out or upset. I think that's morsan's intention, by the way she attacks instead of reasons.

I would say to her, or any of her friends who swarm out of the woodwork, "Your tone has become disrespectful and attacking. I would be happy to continue a civil debate with you, but if you cannot be civil I refuse to continue. If anyone has questions about vegetarianism/veganism, please check out the following links etc"

Always try to take the high road. Their crappy behavior and attacks will, to the intelligent reader, reflect badly on them.

[annie7]

That's really good advice. Thanks

[tricia]

I don't let people bother me too much...especially online.... im usually the one pissing people off with my views.... lol.... :P especially now since im bout 90% sure im going to be homeschooling dd....

I have this book about raw food diet...i got it from the library in hopes of finding good veggie recipes that didnt need to be cooked... (trying to implement healthier eating).... anyways there is a chapter on eating raw meat...yuck.... yuck yuck yuck yuck....

thats crazy people actually do it...and its supposdely healthy if make sure ur meat isnt processed with pork.... and is cut that day or something...couldnt read any further.... thought of eating meat with blood pouring everywhere made me wanna hurl.... :(

[annie7]

I second that barf!

[alexis]

yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck YUCK...they really are taking that step into getting people to eat like true carnivores aren't they? Now, let's think of all the germs, bacteria and maybe, even maggots in that meat and the people eating them...UGH...i pity them...

[annie7]

It finally happened. I wasn't posting to anyone specifically, but morsan must have felt guilty. I posted:

I'm not the food police. Live and let live. I only get riled up when people take a THEORY or an OPINION and act as if it is a fact that needs crammed down the throat of an undecided person. Everyone deserves a chance to choose their own path. Not to be lectured to on pretense.

Then after all her previous posts (using the term "fact" over and over, pushing her own opinion), she had the nerve to personally ambush me:

"Annie- I really didn't feel anyone was trying convince the OP about his/her opinion......I too can't stand when people take opinions as facts......

Here are a couple more *pearls of wisdom* she cared enough to impart in other places within that same thread...

"I don't feel like having a debate right now, and I think you don't either, but I felt an urge to follow up on your remarks..." (eh, 'scuze me... Isn't that technically a debate?)

and..... My fave....

"I can't stand when people start dabbling with scientific "evidence" as if it were something etched in stone!!" (eh, 'scuze me again... isn't "proof of fact" sort of what "evidence" means?)

In every single post she tried to completely destroy the "idea" of veg*nism with OPINION, then turns right around and says, "I, too can't stand......"

Yeah, right. Blah de blah blah.

Just thought I'd give you a little giggle for the day!

[sarahrose]

Sorry about not saying "hi"- I guess I was engrossed by the irrational attacks taking place. That morsan is very strange.....I thought I sounded pretty civil and sane...and she keeps responding like I'm talking nonesense! I guess truth to the crazy is nonesense though-I've let it go now- as long as the O.P got the message, i am satisfied. This sure has turned into an ordeal, hasnt it?

[tricia]

Sarah,

No doubt.... it has been crazy... shes voicing her craziness on another thread in that section about soy....and how dangerous it is... i didnt even bother responding but the post is quite amusing...lol....

[alexis]

Do you ever realize that most of the time, people like morsan sound like insane maniacs who have become so deranged that they're totally past reason?

[guera]

I never went to Mothering.com or whatever the forum you are refering to, but in you reply that I just read.. was awesome.~! and the one about that you had an ugly picture in your brain about tigers lapping up all that blood, not for me.. escactly! Coudn't have said it better~!

Good post, maybe the people at that mothering site will be more informed.

Mucho Amor,
Megan Garcia