I don't understand the logic...

[EricP]

Ok guys, I don't know how many times I've encountered this but it's getting on my nerves.

As most of you know, I have quite a few rescued animals in my home. Two of them are dogs. Well, we've been invited to the rescue groups summer picnics for a few years now and we've received an invitation for a Christmas party to bring as many of the rescued animals together again... NO PROBLEM FOR ME.

Now here's what REALLY bothers me... they choose to have meat at these functions, which is apparently about celebrating the chance to give an unlucky animal a new shot at life. :confused: I don't get how they can give their life for one animal (dog) and devote their time and money into providing the best possible home for him/her, and then eat another animal (pig, cow, etc) like it was nothing!

I've seen this at SPCA "picnics" as well as in other animal rescue/rights groups.

Is it me, or does this seem like a HUGE conflict?

Oh and in case you were wondering... I HAVE brought up the idea to use veggie weiners/burgers instead... only to have been look at as if I were suggesting that we eat the dogs.

:rolleyes: I guess it's one ways to see who the real animal lovers from the wannabee's that 'rescue' for a hobby.

[VOW]

I see your reasoning, Hon, but you have to understand they are shining examples of society's "double standard."

Meat, as in food, is something that is located in the grocery store, on styrofoam trays and wrapped in hygenic plastic. The drippy stuff is called "juice."

IMHO, what works best is the subtle approach. Bring a big box of Boca burgers from the warehouse store at the next Rescue Picnic. People tend to think with their stomachs...



~VOW

[EricP]

Thanks VOW...

But it really peeves me off at how they viewed that as an insult rather than what it is... why save an animal only to kill 20 for a picnic?

[Doug]

I guess the bumper sticker on my car would apply here....

'Why do we call some animals pets and others dinner?

[VOW]

Well, some people can't think outside of the box.

Start small. You can't change the world overnight.

Maybe you can bring a real live COW to the next picnic?

I'm reminded of a TV show I saw many years ago. It was called "Practical Jokes" or something like that. A lady came into a bogus butcher shop to order steaks for a cookout. The clerk brings out a real live COW, and using a magic marker, draws on the side of the cow the different cuts of meat. After she chooses what she wants, he leads the cow to the back...

And then you hear a gunshot.

Crude, but effective.



~VOW

[annie7]

I know exactly what you mean by calling it what it is.... How many people would FINALLY be turned off by having a menu list:
Your choice of Pig flesh, cow leg, or wing of bird, with a side dish of green beans also containing strips of pig butt, followed by our award winning dessert, frozen cow breast milk topped with whipped cow breast milk and a cherry on top!

Um.....One veggie burger to go, Please!

[xmysticprincessx]

I was in the SPCA a couple months ago (I thought I had lost my cat, but he just hiding... loooong story). Had they not been so busy, I would have asked why they don't go after the farms that raise animals to be killed for dinner. When someone has a hundred starved dogs living in filth at his/her home, the SPCA comes and takes them away and it all over the newspaper and the 11:00 news. But for some reason, the farms where cows, pigs, chickens, etc are raised and killed in worse conditions go unnoticed. I saw one of the workers eating something like an Egg McMuffin, and I really wanted to say something like that it would break her heart if she knew how badly the chickens who laid those eggs in her breakfast were treated. But I kept my mouth shut since it was busy and I didn't want to piss anyone off (especially when I needed their help to potentially find my cat.)

(Which BTW, my cat was mad at me for being stuck home being cat-sat by my grandparents, so he was hiding and didnt come out for 2 days. I didnt know whether to be mad or happy when he finally did come out.)

[EricP]

xmysticprincessx, I agree with you 100%...

The way I look at it, people see food animals as being property, no one really cares about the welfare of property. BUT, Companion animals are totally different... or are they?

I love all animals... dogs, cats, fish, crickets, buffalo, birds, etc... I don't see any difference between the pork I see in the super markets and the dogs I help to resuce. A life is a life.

Some people should stop pretending to care for animals and really start trying to LIVE like they care.

I've read of stories where farm owners would kill wild animals for eating their livestock... why... because those wild animals are eating their PROPERTY. It doesn't occur to them that these animals are only eating to survive.

It has been very frustrating to see these 'animal' lovers picking and choosing what animals are fine to eat and what are fine to save...

I wonder what parents who have pet birds are thinking when they feed their kids chicken. :confused:

[Mystican]

Renee, I haven't seen a t-shirt yet with that particular quote, but VeganEssentials.com does have a couple of t-shirts with similar messages.

The first has a picture showing a dog next to a cow, and below that a pig next to a cat, and the quote says, "Why love one and kill the other? Make the connection. Go veg for life." You can find it at https://secure5.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/product_detail.asp?CS=vegane&RowID=576&All=

The second t-shirt is very likely to raise some eyebrows no matter where you go. It shows a dog sitting on a plate (and looking up at the viewer), with knife and fork beside it, and the quote says, "Why Not? You eat other animals, don't you? Go Vegan" That one is at https://secure5.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/product_detail.asp?CS=vegane&RowID=537&All=

-Erik

[sarahrose]

Oh boy, don't get me started on this issue!!! My "dear" mother in-law would spank my husband (when he was a child, of course!) If he (or his brother) would hurt each-other or an animal-and no, my husband would never intentionally hurt an animal- but yet she would serve them dead animals for all three meals of the day, and thinks that there is nothing cruel at all about it !! AHHHHHHH People have no logic :mad: !

[EricP]

Hey Sarah,

I guess most meat-eaters will NEVER stumble upon that connection... to them, ignorance is bliss.

It amazes me how many meat-eaters would BUY a dog for several hundred dollars (yes, from a pet store... even when millions of abandoned ones needs homes), care for him; love him; buy him many treats and toys, etc...

BUT then turn around and eat another animal (of similar qualities) without thinking twice. It amazes me more how offended these people become when they find out that there are people overseas eating dogs for dinner.

:rolleyes:

To some, pigs are pets, and to others, a dog is... one eats a pig and the other eats a dog... it's very, very strange logic.

[sophie]

Yes, recently a documentary screened here about the marketing of dogs for meat somewhere in asia (Korea? I can't remember where sorry), it showed pictures of dog carcasses in the markets, etc, and of course there was this huge outcry, people were outraged, disgusted etc, and me and Al just could not get over the hypocrisy, it is totally absurd when you think about it.

[EricP]

Yup, I can hear the typical meat-eater now:

"Oh, how dare they eat dog!?", "That's disgusting", "What kind of people are these?"...

Sadly, they would probably say this while shoving pieces of cow parts or chicken parts down their throats.

But really, where does the North American meat-eater draw the line? Dogs? Cats? Monkeys? Where? And most importantly.... WHY is that the line?

I see no real difference between a pet bird and a chicken, or between a pig and a dog, so why are others able to scarf down veal and at the same time so appalled at the thought of eating dogs?

[fishheads]

pangea has the t-shirt with the "If you love animals called pets....." saying on it. www.pangeaveg.com

[sophie]

Actually, I guess to an extent I sort of differentiate...I really find veal to be one of the most offensive types of meat, as it is little baby cows:( And lamb, too. Once I was driving past a slaughterhouse and I saw all these little baby lambs all queueing up to go inside and get their throats slit. They were all jumping and baaing, and there was this little black lamb in front bouncing around that was the cutest thing. It still makes me feel like crying when I think about it years later. I know that meat is meat, but killing baby animals just really gets to me the most, probably because I'm a mother.

[sophie]

Just thinking about it though, at least those baby animals are spared a lifetime of misery before they meet the same fate.:(

[Dancer]

...that little story about the baby lambs made me want to cry and alternately enrages me. The human race is so strange. We draw strange lines in the sand, we compartmentalize morality and ethics, we slice the throat of a baby animal but protect pedophiles and murderers. How dare anyone judge another culture for their meat eating choices when we are such bloody murderers right here. (USA)

Good news: I met another vegan! She teaches two floors up from me and word got around.....and...she showed up at my classroom door with a recipe for homemade Miso soup.

One small step.....lol....

Dancer

[alexis]

Has anyone ever read the book 'Rainbow Valley' that's part of the 'Anne of Green Gables' series. There's this litle bit in there where the cranky old aunt kills off the girl's pet rooster for a visiting minister's dinner and she cried buckets over it...that made me wonder, why on earth would people eat chickens and cows, pigs that come from an unkown source but would get all upset about the killing of a similar animal which is their pet? Makes no sense does it?

[EricP]

That's my point exactly Alexis!

It's very disturbing to see this as being part of most humans behavior... PEOPLE DON'T CARE UNLESS IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS THEM.

If people see an animal being killed for food (or millions for that matter), they don't care... BUT they do care if it's a pet.

What does that say about a person? Would these people walk over someone who has been hit by a car unless it was a relative or friend? I HONESTLY think they would.

Call me extreme, but I believe you can tell a lot by the way a person treats animals... and it's proven fact that people who abuse animals end up being wife-beaters, rapists or murderers. So why is it any different when people ignore the suffering or show no remorse over an animals death? The 'lack of compassion' really does show the world a persons inside.

Regards,

EricP

[Fiona]

I think that many meat eaters just give no thought to the processes involved in producing their meat, because they don't have to. Eating meat is considered by most people to be ordinary, acceptable behaviour.

However, I think if all meat eaters where required to attend an intensive, interactive training course on how meat is produced, starting with an intensively raised farm animal and ending at the butcher's shop, with compulsary hands on participation throughout, then many people would find this incredibly disturbing. Then they might finally make some connections and change their eating habits.


Fiona

[EricP]

Thanks for your reply Fiona, but I believe that would only hold true for 'some' meat-eaters.

Take my father-in-law for example. He knows where his meat comes from and how much suffering the animals go through to get him 'dinner'. He 'loves' his dogs and yet still chomps down on meat.

My wife has little fridge magnets on his fridge that say "don't eat babe for breakfast" and other things like that, and he'll still buy meat, eggs, and dairy without hesitation. She has given him the statistics on what goes on in factory farms; and how meat can have a negative effect on his health - it goes in one ear and out the other.

That was an example of just one person, but there are millions who DO know what goes on in factory farms and still don't care.

When I ate meat, I would always feel awful at what the animals must go through, and I questioned if it was necessary. Back then, it was all I was 'allowed' to eat... I didn't know what soy was LOL

My point is... YES, people may find it disturbing to watch/hear about an animals life, but give them an hour and they'll be cooking up veal for dinner. :mad:

[alexis]

there's one word i was taught describing this...'apathetic(?)' basically meaning some people prefer the ostrich head in the sand method when it comes to stuff like that...that's basically how people who ignore stuff like global warming and the impending gloom and doom this earth is headed for....but sometimes the reason people prefer to stick their heads in the sand is because they have no idea how to deal with the adverse stuff, like changing it and all and they just give up and think 'Just live as though i've never known about it before'.... ya know, ignorance is bliss...yada yada...ok, i'm blabbing here, someone stop me (Tapes mouth shut with scotch tape):D

[EricP]

Yup, as I mentioned in a previous post "if it doesn't directly affect people - they just don't care"

I don't know how people can have kids, and then destroy the world and the life on it because it doesn't affect THEM :mad:

[sarahrose]

My meat eating older brother said last night that if people had to kill the animals themselves to eat meat, most people would be vegetarian. He said that he himself would never be able to kill an animal, but since the killing does not directly affect him, ( as EricP said ), and he did not have to witness it, he can eat the meat and not think about the killing behind it. He is like many meat eaters who, in this day and age, have lost their survival "kill or be killed" mentality of the early settlers, who could kill the family pig with no guilt, feeling it to be just the way things are-neccesary. In the neat little packages in the store, it is easy for a meat eater to think of it in terms of 'cut', 'weight', and 'quality', not in terms of 'pig', 'cow', ect... I have heard countless meat eaters lie to their children about their "food", much like Ronald McDonald and his hamburger patch, where burgers grow on stems, like cabbage patch dolls. My point here is that it seems to me like humans are evolving to be more sensitive,(due to everything being for convenience, and winessing killing is very inconvenient, so most people have never even seen something be killed) If there were suddenly no more slaughter houses, I really feel that many people would be incapable of killing their food, unless they were some kind of hunter already, and enjoyed killing for sport.

[annie7]

How wonderful that you met another vegan! What were the odds of that?! I wonder what the "word" was that got around! You'll have to introduce your new friend to the discussion boards, too.

[EricP]

Sarah, I agree with you and I don't agree with you.......


I believe that if people would have to kill their own food to survive, some won't, but only temporarily. As people get use to the idea of killing their pet for food, they will ultimately become desensitized by death and that is very scary.

I remember being in Italy with my grandparents when I was very young (perhaps 4 years old). I vividly remember waking up one morning and going outside to say good morning to everyone and seeing a sheep hanging upside down from it's legs bleeding out though it's slit throat. I witnessed my family "preparing" food by cutting that poor animals stomach open and removing it's insides... I don't remember how I reacted emotionally, but to this very day I still remember that moment.

The thing that really get's to me, is how natural it was for my grandparents to take that animals life... they've been doing it for years to survive. But I can't imagine the entire world doing that... in a time when we can live without the death of an animal for food. It would be the ultimate low for humans.

I don't believe that people should have to actually see an animal being killed to understand it's wrong, or cruel, or unnecessary. HUMANS should already have this understanding - and most do, but at the same time, they just ignore it. Why? Who knows. The mechanism in ones brain that tells them that shooting their dog is wrong, somehow fails to work when that 'dog' is a cow, or pig or chicken or fish.

Where do we go from here?

[sarahrose]

EricP, I absolutely agree that it would be temporary. People would surely ultimatly start to kill food out of selfishness and greed. I don't understand why there are people like us and yet also people like them. I have thought that vegans possibly represent a part of human evolution, a new phase for humans who have found better ways, and are far beyond killing for food. I say this because I always had a revulsion to meat, even before I knew what it was, everything about it seemed wrong, and if ever I ate it I got sick. My parents said later that they always knew I was naturally a vegetarian, and I have met similar people who have had the same experience. It's almost like it's not a choice for me, it's just who I am as a human being. That is what led me to the thought that maybe we are evolving- like my friend who only had one wisdom tooth, and the dentist told her that many people recently are even being born without them because we no longer need them. O.K....I'm rambling again...but, it is a possibility.

[EricP]

:D I've always thought that humans who can survive without taking another life are more evolved than others.

[sophie]

I have a feeling I've mentioned this in a post before, but did anyone see that show that was on quite a while ago, where these families had to live like pioneers for a few months, with only the resources their pioneer ancestors would have had? There was this little boy in one family whose job it was to tend the animals, and he grew really fond of them all and started treating them like friends (instead of "food"), and there was this really awful part where they were going to kill his pet pig (or it may have been a sheep, it was a while ago and I can't remember all the details) and he was absolutely heartbroken, sobbing and devestated, and his stupid mother was giving him a lecture about how the animals exist so we can live, blah-de-blah, basically telling him to get over it and getting angry at him for getting "so attached" to the animals. It made me sooooo mad. I hope that boy grows up to be a vegan.

[Jenica]

When I first went vegan, I was renting a room from my brother and sister-in-law. Like most new vegans, I was very ardent about my choice, sharing all my reasons with anyone who would listen. As I was talking with my (very intelligent, M.I.T. educated) brother one morning over breakfast, him listening to me intently as usual, compassion seeming to flow from his every pore, he said one thing to me I will never forget: "I wish I had time to think about things like that."

In a nutshell, I think that sums it up. Meat eaters prioritize their lives differently. The standards that are important to them to maintain are very different than our standards. Though my spiritual views lead me to believe that inside each of us we harbor desire for a nonharmful way of living, this is only my perspective, my sincere hope, and my dream of utopia.

[Erin Pavlina]

Yeah, I saw that show. I was very sad. :(

[annie7]

The boy in that documentary knowingly ate that pig. Never another word about it. Same thing with the chicken. Plus, he repeated for the camera man what his mother drilled into him about their hens, "If they don't lay....they don't stay" meaning they kill them if they didn't lay eggs. I doubt if he goes vegan. Just because the sadness didn't last any longer than it took to fire up the BBQ.

[sophie]

Annie- yeah. I remember after the boy was sobbing the next shot was the pig happily roasting on a spit with the family all eating chunks of it. The poor brainwashed kids joining in.
Hmm, anyway, yesterday I was telling my dad about hese lovely cows in a paddock over the road from where my partner works. I was tellign him how every time i go there, they all walk up to the fence and stare at me, and I always take the kids over to say hi. I said "They're really intelligent", to which he replied "No, they're not, they're stupid, I know because I've worked with them. They only come over because they think you'll feed them, they're only interested in food". Well, where do you start? I didn't want to get into a big argument but I said firstly how on earth do you know what goes on inside an animal's head? Then I said well, Solly (my baby) is really interested in food too, but you wouldn't call him stupid, and also, if we deem something to be "stupid" why is it then ok to harm it? Because I know that people call cows stupid to justify the killing and eating of them, when really, even if they were stupid (which they are most definitely not), how on earth does this justify eating them|?
Ok, rant over.

[EricP]

Sophie, it makes you wonder why stupid people just don't eat each other :rolleyes:

[alexis]

har har har.....:D

[Fiona]

If humans weren't at the top of the foodchain, would people who are happy to eat animals because they're 'stupid', be so happy to be eaten themselves by a more intelligent species? I think not!


Fiona

[alexis]

First of all, i'd like to point out that cows and other animals aren't stupid...in the first place humans label them as stupid because their logic is that anything which ends up on their plate does not deserve to be deemed as intelligent...which i fibnd incredibly stupid...heh heh...so to call any living creature stupid is to prove who the really stupid one is....

[sophie]

Yes, I totally agree! My friend has recently acquired a pet pig, and it roams around their house and land and is really similar to a dog, it's so intelligent. My friend is a vegetarian but her husband isn't (though he makes a concerted effort), and now he loves the pig so much that there is no way he is ever eating bacon or ham again. People have been making "jokes" to him about fattening the pig (Albert is its name) for Xmas and he gets really mad. They were saying how having a pet which is normally a "food" animal has really opened their eyes to how barbaric it is to eat meat.

[vegma]

This thread has been very thought-provoking for me, and it has saddened me too in some ways. Perhaps because I was one of "them" for so very long.

Eric, there is no logic as to why some people believe that it is ok to eat some animals and not others, but life-long conditioning can be hard to challenge. Your positive example and gentle explanations would probably go a long way with the animal rescuers - not overnight, but in time.

Sarahrose, you were so fortunate that your dad helped you to be a healthy vegan at the age of 4.

The comments about the little boy in the documentary brought tears to my eyes. What a traumatic experience for him! I know, because I experienced a similar situation as a pre-schooler when my dad asked me how Spot (my pet calf) tasted. I refused to eat anything I knew to be meat for at least a year, and I did become sickly. We lived in a small, farming community in the Midwest; it was the early 60's, and my parents just weren't informed about how else to feed me (I've always refused milk). Over the ensuing years, I struggled with the very question Eric posed (and apparently answered at a very young age): why is it ok to eat some animals and not others?

To cut this long story off, suffice it to say, I've been a dietary vegan for nearly 3 years now, and I'm raising my son vegan (in the Midwest where we've never even met another vegan). There is a good chance that he will become "one of you" someday. Life is a journey. Have hope...

[duckie1978]

The show was on PBS and was called Frontier House. It is part of a series of shows that they did, like the Victorian House. I couldn't watch the episode when they killed the animal. I was so livid at the mother for treating her son like that.

[mabelkitty]

Hi everyone! This is my first post... my name is Kerrie, and Mabel was my sweet little black cat who had feline leukemia and passed away in 1998... so anyway...

There is a farmed animal sanctuary about an hour from Sacramento, called Animal Place. They have started a "Food for Thought" campaign, which directly addresses this issue! They have a packet that folks can give to their local SPCA, rescue group, etc. which asks them to please "think about" why we must care so much for these rescued animals, how their lives have value, yet we have fund raisers and serve cows, chickens, pigs, etc. -- so why don't *those* animals' lives have value? They do have a website, which is www.animalplace.org. We've visited the sanctuary twice and gone to some of their vegan fund raisers... yum yum!

During the summer, I volunteered at a local wildlife rescue/rehab facility. In October, they held a Volunteer Appreciation dinner... and served beef skewers and BBQ'ed chicken. My boyfriend asked the servers if the green beans had bacon in them (it was a "luau" theme). As he was checking out the food, one server said to the other, "There sure are a lot of people asking us if the food is vegetarian." The other replied, "Well, I guess it makes sense -- this *is* a wildlife rescue group!"

Too bad the directors of the rescue group didn't come to this realization.

As the Volunteer of the Year accepted her award, she explained how important our work is, and how the center saved 1000 animals this year... and how all of our long hours, work, energy, and sacrifice are for the animals' benefit. My boyfriend said later, "Yeah, I wanted to ask about the animals they were serving for dinner... what about their benefit?" No kidding. Doesn't it seem bizarre? I think when I volunteer again this summer, I'll have the "Food for Thought" info with me.

[annie7]

Wow, Kerrie...
that's great. I'd carry that info in my pocket everywhere! I'm going to check out that website, too. Sounds like alot of good information. Sorry to hear about Mabel. We lost a dog that was very close to our hearts, too. We had him for 15 years. Feels like losing a member of the family, doesn't it?
By the way welcome to the board. Lots of good "virtual friends" here who vent with you, laugh with you, cry with you, pray for you, and pretty much just make you feel good to know.